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Col II is a Sloppy Product

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by Öjevind Lång, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Barns

    Barns Chieftain

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    I didn't know that forum was down there, I just went via the list of forums on the home page, doh! Learn something new every day! Thanks!

    A whole new forum to waste my time reading...
     
  2. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Having to bring the pioneer into a city every few turns for reequpping was a piece of micromanagement I really detested, and it didn't make any sense either. You could as well demand that all dragoons be periodacally recalled to have the horses fittd with new shoes.

    And having to sacrifice production for education was also rather annoying. Of course, I have know realized that these changes are there primarily because the game designers have streamlined Colonization into a scenario which must be played in one way, and one way only, with no distractions. The original Colonization was a game with one ultimate goal - independence - but it could be played in different ways. There was the period of settlement and exploration, the period of building uop your colonies, then probably wars with your European rivals and finally preparing for the war for independence. You could play at a rather leisurely pace, having some fun during each period, and the king did not rack up taxes at such an insane pace. You also you had until 1850 to win. But now, from the moment you land, the king is the enemy and you don't even have time for much in the way of warfare with other colonizers because you must focus on the rebellion at once. And you have to use the strategy used in the American War for Independence, that is to say, abandon the coastal cities, retreat inland and fight a guerilla war.

    I think this is a change for the worse, and I don't like to buy a "game" which is actually not even a mod of Civ IV but a scenario. How many times can one play a scenario?

    I'll post about my realization that this is not even a mod, just a scenario, in the forum I have been told is the proper one for that.
     
  3. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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    Why abandon your cities? I find it easier to fight the war on the landing beaches and wipe out the King's troops as they arrive.
     
  4. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Let me guess. You spend all you money on troops and declare independence very early. I suppose that's possible, but how much fun is that?
     
  5. ZippyRiver

    ZippyRiver Prince

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    Thx to the OP for the review. It answered a number of questions I had regarding the game changes. I think I will wait to get this one.

    I agree with JonBrave about #10 and #13.
     
  6. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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    On the contrary, the only troops I buy are those that I get cheap from the king and I declare very late (my first game went to turn 292).
     
  7. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Wow. I'm impressed. Would you mind telling me a little about what happened, how it went? I find the REF absolutely murderous.

    Edit: I have seen many claims that one should actually avoid generating liberty bells so as not to enourage the king to increase his army, and that the best strategy is to not defend one's coastal cities too hard but instead retreat to inland cities and wipe out the king's soldiers in the rugged terrain, so I'd be very interested to hear your take on this.
     
  8. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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    I started playing the game on release and just went ahead and cranked out liberty bells as I would have in Col 1. That strategy resulted in a lot of goodies (more Founding Fathers, quick border expansions taking over Indian land, increased production through the Independence %) and one single negative - a huge REF. However my dragoons benefitted from FF enhancements and the Independence % bonus after DOI and I was able to stop them on the beaches.

    That was at Explorer difficulty but the same strategy worked at Conquistador and I'm now trying Governor. For more details see:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293343
     
  9. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    Good constructive criticisms. Does anyone have an idea when we can expect an official patch that will address some of the problems?
     
  10. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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  11. Reveilled

    Reveilled Warlord

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    I agree with almost everything in the OP, though three comments in particular caught my eye:

    I'm not sure that in its current state you can classify this as a good thing. After your victory, you pretty much go back to being a colony. The King can still sell you troops, you still trade under tax and embargo conditions, etc. You could play on in the original game and things instead stayed as they were during the war, but with the ability to see all other nations' reports. Plus you got a nifty new flag.

    I never noticed Bolivar, but it's more than just that. The King of Spain is Peter with black clothes, the King of the Netherlands is William of Orange pimped out and on heroin, And obviously anyone who was in Civ4 reappears almost exactly as they were before (Louis, Washington, Montezuma, etc.). I don't know about the other french guy, but at the very least he uses Charlemagne's animations.

    Eh, I liked the over the top nature, especially the English King's ring sequence, and the way he otherwise looked like he was trying to become the seventh member of the Village People. Chalk that one up to personal taste, I guess.
     
  12. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    They should alter that in a patch so the king doesn't bother you any more, and remove his remaining warships from the New World map. What are the Village People, by the way?
     
  13. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

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    In some ways it is, more content is typically NOT better and the addition of many of the things has not entirely been good for the game. Yes the game overall is perhaps better especially when combined with the community patches, but vanilla Civ4 was a pretty tight game design wise, and they have since cluttered it up rather badly. The only elements you should have in the game are ones there for a clear purpose.

    More features is not always better. Most all of the national wonders add nothing to the game, half the real wonders should be deleted, the great general system adds nothing to the game, I could go on and on.

    As Leonard Nimoy says ENGINEERING - "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

    in my mind all vanilla civ4 need was a few tweaks and MASSIVE work on the AI. That would have been worth an expansion and not cluttered the game up with a bunch of useless content.

    (Full disclosure I still love BTS, but I am really really sad to see how good TBS GalCiv2 and Civ4 has given in to the more is better design theory which is so clearly wrong, but allows for easy expansion money).
     
  14. brianshapiro

    brianshapiro King

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    Bizarrely, its possible to have a ranch and gain horses per turn, without having any horses to start with.
     
  15. brianshapiro

    brianshapiro King

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    The natives should have more tribal warfare between each other.
     
  16. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I thought abiut that quotatition too. :) I like the corporations and the Great Wall, but I don't much care for the other innovations. Particularly not for the espionage slider and the cheap spies who swarm like locusts, blowing up things and poisoning wells without you being abe to find out which country was behind it and having the option to start a justified war without diplomatic fallout.
     
  17. kayapo

    kayapo Chieftain

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    There is so much wrong on this little bit of your post that i don't know where to begin. It is not even worth trying to correct you. I don't know where you got this information but it is just wrong. Why did you bother to include this little piece of history in your post i fail to see but it really annoyed me to see so many wrong affirmatives.

    Although the declaration of brazilian independance is very unique in it's details it obviously wasn't done with Lisboa's approval just because there was no war doesn't mean it was done with the King's consent.

    Napoleon was not a threat anymore, the Portuguese court had already gone back to Lisboa which is one of the facts that made it possible for the independance movement.

    D. Pedro II was NOT deposed because he abolished slavery. Where did you get this from? It is not true and makes no sense at all. The republicans that deposed the monarchy were not pro-slavery.

    I'm sorry for responding to this since the thread is not about it. The inclusion of this information in the opening post was not very usefull and the fact that it is just plain wrong really bothered me.

    Carry on.
     
  18. lermfish

    lermfish Chieftain

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    I found it fun, but that is mainly because I have never played Colonization. It is true, however, that the kings look awful. That is why I only play Britain.

    However, the King of the Nederlands should be William van Oranje. Maybe it wasn't accurate, but, well... I like it. So there. :p

    Europe seems to simplified. It's just a screen. And, later, just a group of warships that come and sack my cities. There should be a lot more interaction with Europe and the Indians.
     
  19. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I told the same story that you tell, but in condensed form, precisely because, as you point out, this thread isn't about Brazilian history. I didn't say that Brazil became independent with the king's approval; I said that once it happened, he didn't mind that his son was made emperor. I didn't say that the king was still in Brazil, but his son and many members of the court were. The son and many of the court chose not to return to Lisbon, which probably indicates something. Perhaps I should have been clearer about this, but I found it unnecessary in the context of Col II. And finally, Dom Pedro II was overthrown because when he abolished slavery, he lost the support of the conservative landowners, which made it a piece of cake for the liberals to depose him. That is elementary history, as you no doubt know.
     
  20. BlastDuke

    BlastDuke Always hungry

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    I must correct you, there are horses to start with: You need 50 horses to build a stable. These horses are the "breeding base".
     

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