Colonize/Decolonize

[EdwardTking]

Originally posted by gael

The British tried to rule Ireland and sought to extingish anything that was Irish. Langauge/customs/religion/names.
Even the people at at one point- 'To hell or connaught'.

It is a fair cop.


We were seen as completly inferior, only one notch up on their evolutionary scale from the Africans. Anglo saxons were at the top of course.

I thought it was the Normans who were the top breed!


What colonies are you talking about?

India was split and came pretty close to a nuclear war lately.

India was always split. Present day India is quite large compared with all previous Indian states. The Britain left in 1948. It is not our fault if religious antipathies have
re-established themselves.


We still have problems here.

I here great things about the Emerald Isle!


Palistine is hardly a bed of roses.

Palestine was a mandate not a colony.


Iraq is a nice spot in the summer etc etc.

True, I'd leave tomorrow!


The only ones that came out of it shining were the ones were the indigionous people we practically wiped out and the land was colonised by british settlers.


With the help of the Irish!

 

[raen]

Portuguese Colonization was very sucessful, but when we talk about decolonization, it was a disaster, you miss an option:

6. Give Independence without negotiation, "You are free, Bye" (The Portuguese way....)

Maybe the more peaceful way to do it, but not the best because that new nation dont have protection, or other things... some of them entered in civill war.... And in the case of Timor, were Invaded by Indonesians....

Nowadays the problem is being solved and there is an organization of Portuguese speaking countries, and cooperation is prime objective


Maybe The best option would be the fourth.

 

[civilleader]

The british split us! India was united to halt UK in the indian mutiny. The best decolonizers are the Dutch. Come on Indonesia is doing really well. The Japanese hate to say it despite how terrible colonizers they were ended up creating the Asian NICS wherever they left, ie. Singapore, Taiwan, Korea. Or is this mainly USA?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by civilleader
The british split us! India was united to halt UK in the indian mutiny. The best decolonizers are the Dutch. Come on Indonesia is doing really well. The Japanese hate to say it despite how terrible colonizers they were ended up creating the Asian NICS wherever they left, ie. Singapore, Taiwan, Korea. Or is this mainly USA?

This is the most oversimplification of history I've ever seen...

The Indian subcontinent had always been disunited, except for a few moments during her long history. And she had always been culturally disunited, and home to hundreds of different groups or so I heard.

Even during the Mutiny, most local leaders were supporting the British, or otherwise aloof IIRC - the mutineers didn't have much of an organization, or an objective, or a plan on what they're going to do. The Brits were able to deal with each area in turn, and separately.

The Dutch were physically kicked out of Indonesia by the local nationalists after WW2; hardly a matter of 'decolonizing'.

Singapore, Taiwan and S Korea becoming NICS were hardly due to Japan's role during WW2. Each achieved it, due to different reasons and circumstances.

 

[Qitai]

If the intention is in the best interest of the colony, rather than the country who colonise the country.

Then, along the lines of 4. Start with total self rule domestically, but continue to control the military. This way, the people in the country gain experience in running a country. This will also allow time for the country to stablize, since there will certainly be chaos in the beginning. Keeping the military off the hands of the common folks in the country ensures no dictator gains control of the country through military power.

Once things stablized, start the transfer of defense responsibility to the colony, keeping a close watch that to ensure that there is no military coup.

This option, in most cases though are not in the best interest of the people who colonize the country, since the continual military prescence cost them $$ which probably is the main reason they want to pull out in the first place.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Arvln
I wish that Inodonesia was a British colony rather than Dutch

Why exactly?


Indonesia is doing fairly ok, I thought. The biggest problem, IMHO, Indonesia is facing, is muslim fundamentalism. But I don't think my ancestors can be blamed for that.

The Dutch decolonisation of Suriname is one big mess. I blame naive left-wingers for it. If all the money sent to Suriname since 1975, would have been put into a bank account, and now divided over all Surinamers, they would all be miljonairs.

I won't even start about the Antilles....

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The Dutch 'colonization' of the East Indies was brutal, compared with... say the British. Seemed like they're in it for the money, and forced the natives to convert to cash crops, which they took a huge percentile of as taxes. Also handed out the tax collecting business to middlemen (mostly Chinese) as tax farms, with the collectors taking a cut, resulting in a super-efficient-brutal taxation process.

Particularly the Dutch East Indies Company (the V.O.C.), which was the de facto ruler of the whole region until it went bankrupt and was taken over by the Dutch govt, was very keen on money-making, and monopolizing the spices coming out of the Spice Islands. They were in the habit of massacring islanders who sold spices to non-Dutch agents.

And the Dutch spread their holding in the East Indies thru open warfare on the natives, beginning with Java, and ended with the Acehnese.

In 1623, they even went all the way to murdering all the 23 Englishmen on the Ambon island, who were there trying to start some spice-related stuff. Though I think this was part of the on-going Anglo-Dutch fighting at the time...

The Dutch were not fondly remembered of in Indonesia, compared with the British in Malaysia and Singapore.

 

[Stapel]

Exploitation is a feature of colonisation. I never knew it was done more brutal in Indonesia than elsewhere.

The only thing that is known here as extremely brutal, is the Aceh war. Even today, many people from Aceh rebel against 'Jakarta'.

During history lessons here in NL, we are taught it wasn't so bad. Just for the money, respecting the original cultures and religions.... Of course I understand this is not completely true but Dutch colonisers being more brutal than English ones is 100% new info for me.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well, the V.O.C. went all out to exploit their East Indies holdings, forcing local farmers to change to planting cash crops like spice, rubber, cotton etc and then taking most of it in the form of taxes. Somewhat comparable with how the agents of the Belgian monarch performed in their huge Congo African holding. Pure economic short-term exploitation.

The V.O.C. also went to war with a lot of locals to enforce their monopolisation of the spice trade like against the Bugis fr Sulawesi, the kingdoms in eastern Java, the Spice Islands themselves, plus the Acehnese of course.

Though I think conditions improved a lot after the Dutch government took over, when the V.O.C. went bankrupt.

The British in Malaya, OTOH, left the locals alone, and imported workers fr India, China to work their plantations and mines. Though I'm sure they've their fair share of exploiting... somewhere...

 

[Patroklos]

The problem of the stepped approach is that alot of indeginous population get ahead of themselves and feel that they are bieng patronized instead of eased into self rule. A buch of hippies will take to the streets shouting about foriegn oppression becasue they have nothing better to do and before you know it they get what the want. They let pride get the best of them.

Insert Corruption followed by Civil War here.