Combat Mod - Archer bombardment

[Nimek]

After Koshling last bug where archery units was unable to preform normal attack (only ranged) i had some kind of enlightment. This is the way that they should work !

If throwing units in Combat Mod works that way that they can throw weapon and run away then archery units that have much more distance than throwing should work more like in civ5.

Archery line
- Always attack via ranged bombardment without loose in health.
- very weak when directly attacked in open field (without fortification).
- adds archery aid promotion to units on the same plot (when aid promotion code from RI will be added)
here is rady modcomp for aid promotions http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=241245 - it will give more realism to combat


In srategy in mean
- archery will always need protection from melee units (like in reality was - archers always stayed in second line)
- archery will be very good attack supporting units.

What should be done
- archery bombardment tweak to give more damage depending on terrains (forest, jungles should give protection agains bombardment)
- tweak accuracy - how much units will be damaged via archery bombardment should depend for accuracy (get rid situation whan archery completly miss target with is unrealistic. When 500 archers shot to 500 units in their range always somebody will be hit)
- tweak archery bombardment to add ability to kill unit via it

This is my idea. What are you think? Especially TB as a Combat mod developer.

Off topic
When we talk about throwing units two things:
1 They should able to run away from batlle only once per turn (now they are too hard too kill)
2 when i move unit on plot to attack throwing and he is run away my unit should move to this plot because i win the battle and i should move where i wanted.

 

[Faustmouse]

- tweak archery bombardment to add ability to kill unit via it

A big fat NO to this one. Previously, if you had a stack of 50 Archers or something, you could easily range bombard a city to death. You never lost a unit. The player who is able to build the most archers won every fight.

 

[Nimek]

@Faustmouse

I agrre that well protected city should give a BIG defensive bonus against archery and to avoid situation that kind we should add a maxAllowedArcheryBombardmentDamage.

So for example only 10% could be done via archer bombardment versus units in well protected city.

 

[DRJ]

Once Thunderbrds ammo system is in place it will be not OP, I guess.

But I also think units shouldn't die by archer fire alone, just like units damaged by catapults can't die but have a min health of like 10% that can't be taken away.

I also am doubting the AI will be able to defend itself efficiently against archery exploit considering it can't cope with stone throwers exploit atm...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Much of this is very similar to what I have in mind. Which is cool because it means we're sharing the same sheets of music in many ways, but I've perhaps thought some of it out a little differently as to how to achieve the same basic results.

Recall that during the What is First Strike Anyhow? conversation I proposed that we differ the Hand to Hand and Distance combat strengths of the unit. Or at least be able to modify the combat strength depending on what 'type' of combat they were currently in. I think this will be important.

I also proposed that when a unit goes to battle, it inherits the Distance strength of the strongest distance unit on the stack, whether attacking or defending, and that would also influence the value of the unit in the overall evaluation to which defender is sent to defend. This would mean that Melee units and such would almost always come up before archery and would have the full capabilities of the archer until it entered H2H combat during which it would obviously be much stronger than the archer.

Then the Ammo system would be a limitation of course. The idea would be that battle would follow a flow much more like a real war, yes.

I also have programmed a whole stack support mod (game option) but it awaits an adjustment to the code so that Combat Classes can be given tag values that would affect all units of that combat class. Then it will be very simple to implement. Don't wanna get too much into explaining it til that first step there is complete though. But archery support is a big part of that.

And yes, I still plan to do the RI support promo mod... and the Overcrowded mod. It's all part of the forming picture that's coming together oh so slowly now.

In regards to Archery Bombard, one thing that makes it imbalanced at the moment is the fact that there's no special defenses against it yet. But there was a big reason for shields and that reason was less about the melee benefits, which were debatable in comparison to using two hands on the weapon or two weapons instead - the shield was very good at providing a good chance to survive incoming arrows. So there's a little work to do there too. Yes, I plan to deepen the Archery Bombardment mechanism so that accuracy matters more and is an ability that can be developed on the unit, terrains providing cover, etc.

As for the minimum a unit can be damaged to... It does bug me that in all manifestations throughout the game of bombardment, that its impossible to kill with those attacks. But I haven't figured out a good way to allow it without it becoming a problem as mentioned about the results of then plugging out sheer volume of bombarding units.

Throwing units are nearly impossible to kill because you don't have access to Pursuit yet. It's comin'. It will make it much easier at that point to at least prepare yourself to vanquish such units. Remember, one of the goals of the combat mod is to move all focus on the valuation of a unit away from strength alone. The Early Withdraw mechanism means that even a weak unit can still have a powerful role - and the way to counter it is simply not in place yet. I wanted to leave it out for a moment so y'all could really begin to recognize how important it will be to develop some units to pursue. Fast Mounted are pretty much now intended as the ultimate counter to throwing units for this reason - they'll be able to pursue very effectively.

Also - read the map and try to leave nowhere for the defending throwing unit to run to that isn't threatened and you'll completely disable its ability to defensively withdraw.

I agree with the second point on the attacker being able to move forward when the defender flees though... I may not be clear enough on how to make that work that way - I'd thought it would. I know if you knockback you'll move forward... but how to make that happen without making the attacker launch another attack or accidentally allow it to be mixed with an enemy stack... I'll have to take a look at that I think.