Combat System - Upgraed power system

[laconic]

For Eng is not my first language, please forgive me if I make any mistakes.

We are always talking about overpowed spearmen, actually it's about RND or combat system. Why we didn't set combat unit power upgrade system. My idea is to set a power range for every combat unit.

I am using warrior as example:

Warrior is 1/1/1 and swordman is 3/2/1. Swordman is the up unit from warrior. Currently, warrior keeps 1/1/1 even it's elite. The only thing different is elite warrior HP up to 5.

My point is :

How about set warrior power range from 1/1/1 to 3/2/1. When you built a warrior, it's 1/1/1, after several victories, it will upgrade to elite and power up to 3/2/1. However, 3/2/1 is the maxiam. Same as swordman, set range from 3/2/1 to 6/3/1. Something like that.

The bennefit is if some CIV get tech advanced, like he can built swordman, that's fine. He can built 3/2/1 swordman immediately. However, if the tech underdeveloped CIV has lots of well bettled warriors, he can still fight for some turns because those well bettled warriors are 3/2/1 too. But after some turns when those 3/2/1 swordman upgraded to 6/3/1, the swordmen are strong enough to beat 3/2/1 worriors easily.

If you want to upgrade warrior to swordman after you researched the tech, fine, it become 3/2/1 swordmen and from now on you can upgrade it from 3/2/1 to 6/3/1.

We can fine tune the power ranger later. like maybe 1/1/1/ to 2/1/1 is better. bla bla bla ....

Same as those Overpowed Spearmen, I don't think it makes sense that they can fight with Tank. However, they still should get chance to 1/4/1 and be a little bit strong if they are well bettled.

If the combat unit power can be level up, then the RND can be reduced.

I think if you are tech underdeveloped just 1 level, you should still have a chance to fight by using well bettled unit for some time. However, if you are underdeveloped 2 level, no reason to keep you alive.

I know most of the time AI doesn't upgraded their unit. So even it's Industray Age, you can still find lots of spearmen. I can accept they are still 1/4/1, but don't let them die hard.

Any comments are appreciated.

 

[bluebox]

well, in the sengoku conquest the daimyo ( king unit) upgrades a bit like this, but not by combat but with techs. i think the engine doesn't allow such system, the way it works now.
on the other hand, heath points are pretty important in the current combat system; chances to win increase significantly. You can try out the effects inthe combat calculator if you don't mind (somewhere there was a thread "hitpoints more important than a/d values" but i couldn't find it). E.g. a reg. tank vs. a fortified elite spearman in a metro on a hill has a 75/25 chance to win, this should be in about 1 of 4 battles. not to bad for an ancient unit isn't it?
i find your idea interesting but i think, too, the current system is not too bad (warriors always suck, of course!).

 

[Rik Meleet]

First of all: welcome to CFC.

Your idea is interesting. And it counterbalances the increased upgrade cost in Conquests. But I do not think this is the way to go.
In my point of view Civilization is about advancing. Advancing can be done in many ways (scientific, cultural, empire-size etc.) but the main factor of determining the advancedness of a civilization is its technology. If you choose to neglect research and go on a military path, you rightfully are bound to meet units you can't beat. Usually that stops you (for a moment) in your military paths. Of course, experienced units do better in battle, but that feature is already included, more hitpoints. But I don't think higher stats are the way to go. Your idea practically stops the benefit research and gaining new techs has over warring. It is turning the game more into: "Who can fight the best and destroy the most" instead of: "who can build the best civilization". The benefit for military civs is just too big and throws us back to the days of unpatched vanilla Civ where the only way to win on Deity was with a jag-rush or archer rush or whatever rush.

I prefer construction over destruction.

 

[laconic]

bluebox

Thanks for the calculator. I knew that current engine doesn't allow such system. I am talking about some possibility, maybe in CIV4. ^_^

You know, in real life, if a combat unit is elite, that means its ad/df changed by his combat skill, however, his hp should be the same. Am I right?

Rik Meleet

If you check the world history, the advanced CIVs are always conquested by barbarian or those underdeveloped CIVs. The reason is those barbarian has powerful well bettled combat units and their purpose is to piliage the fortune from advanced CIVs.

I don't oppose build the best civilization. However, if you only build the best civilization and doesn't build any army, no fool will let you survive. Am I right?

I knew that the only way to win on Deity was with a jag-rush or archer rush or whatever rush. But that's because of the unfair AI and not much defference combat unit.

If we set warrior from 1/1/1 to 3/2/1 and swordman from 4/2/1 to 7/3/1. you will see that the underdeveloped CIV which has lots of 3/2/1 warrior will not try to attack advanced CIV if the advanced CIV also has some army. In opposit, if an advanced CIV doesn't has lot of army, he will not attack those underdeveloped CIV which has lots of well combat units too.

It's hard to write a perfect fair AI. We still need to improve it.

OK. below I will talk another 2 points from mine.

1. combat unit should take population from the build city like worker and settle. So, if you build more combat unit, your city population will not increase and if the city is 1 or 2, you can't build any high level combat unit. (We can fine tune how many population it should take for those high level combat unit. It makes sense that a tank need more population because this unit needs more maintenance person.)

2. a combat should have a chance to let both attack and deffence units die together. It make sense that both units die together at a combat. I think people can accept a HP4 tank die together with HP4 spearman in a hill or city. However, they are unhappy to see 2 HP4 tanks die, and spearman still alive. Am I right?

 

[alamo]

I like it. 1 measly hp is not that great of an upgrade. The accumulation of experience is standard in many games.

There could also be some 'automatic' upgrade over time. Where does maintenance go once the unit is obsolete? Do we really tie a stone onto a stick to maintain a warrior in the modern age?

Maintenance should accumulate to an upgrade after some point. This would benefit the builders as well as the warmongers.

Maybe this belongs in the improvements thread.

 

[Turner]

I've modded my HPs to something like 3,4,6,8... tends to even out those elites loosing to conscripts.

It's kinda ridiculous that there are a bunch of AI Conscript TOW Infantry running around. I figure after the second or third upgrade it should go to at least regular status.