combat without artillery

[Greg Loader]

Originally posted by GI Josh
My only problem is using settlers to start cities on tiles already claimed and part of another civ as a way of avoiding attacking the city. ........

Josh,

Your point is well taken, especially the earlier note that the AI doesn't know to do this. btw, with my 'pony express', I don't plan to build a city in other's territory, just on the ever expanding edge of my own, so that I may move artillery in using rail roads.

Great idea of using helicopters to transport artillery. Very real to life. However, the idea of the AI doing this is a little frightening. Probably would want to limit capacity in a big way, like submarines, one unit per.

Greg

 

[Vorlin]

Catt, I figure you took this into account, but just to be sure: did you have preserve random seed turned off when you ran that test? I figure it's kind of insulting to ask that, but once the question rose in my mind I just had to ask.

I was 99% sure when I brought it up earlier in this thread that the bonuses were added first and then applied, instead of being applied in series. The reason for this was early on in my Civ/TBS gaming career I assumed the opposite (that they were in series) and it was a shock to me to find out the weren't. Nothing quite like trying to min/max a strategy game when your premises are incorrect.

 

[Tassadar]

Cracker, if you want to stay with the official you are free to do it, but dont mod. If you want to realy improve the game to have fun then use editor.

Some exemple; defense value against bombardement went from 4 to 16 according to patch, nobody ask firaxis for that. As a result now , catapult are totaly useless, cannon to, bomber miss most of the time. and poeple ask now how to take defender without artillery because of inacuracy( unless you use 100 artilery vs 1 city).

So the solution is mod back defense valu to 4, like it was in 1.07.

Cruise missile official range 2 when a bomber got 6. it make no sense at all, so i mod it to 8. I am able to carry 4 cruise missile into aegis cruiser ( which is realistic).

So dont discredit mod, because each patch made by firaxis is a mod made by programer, they are not gamer. And it is not because it is official that it mean it is best.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Vorlin
Catt, I figure you took this into account, but just to be sure: did you have preserve random seed turned off when you ran that test?

Not insulting to ask, and yes, I did have preserve random seed off. I probably should have cut and pasted my methodology in the interests of "open scholarship" (I posted this on another forum site and don't like to link from site to site). Here is the methodology I used:

*****

Most important factor: find time in busy schedule that may be used for a crazy test without impinging on Civ 3 game time (this was accomplished by letting my wife captain the minivan on the 2 hour drive to a niece's high school graduation party yesterday ).

And now, seriously:

In the editor, I configured the human player to start with about 15 settlers, several workers, a pair of explorers, 3 or 4 infantry, 8 marines, 100,000 gold, all technologies discovered, and in a Democracy. Each of the AI civs were given all techs through replaceable parts, a settler, a worker, and an infantry. Infantry was modified so that rubber was not a required resource; transport modified so oil was not a required resource. All combat experience (conscript, regular, veteran and elite) given 10 hit points. Difficulty was set at Regent.

Started game. Selected tiny map, archipelago max water, warm, wet, 5 billion.

"Preserve Random Seed" OFF!

During the first few turns, built two coastal cities pretty close together. In my capitol rush built a transport. In the non-capitol city, garrisoned 7 or 8 settlers. Used workers to irrigate all around the non-capitol. Had 2 settlers join non-capitol city. Rush built aqueduct. Transport and explorers were, meanwhile, looking for contact with a civ, any civ. After aqueduct was completed, added few more settlers, rush built a hospital. By now, I had discovered another civ, and my transport is back in my capitol. Established an embassy with the other civ. Loaded 8 marines into transport, positioned transport just outside the territory of my second city. After hospital was completed, added a few more settlers, bringing population up to 14+. Contacted other civ, "gifted" my second city to him. This generated an AI infantry in the "new" AI metropolis. Waited one turn (so the infantry could fortify). Used embassy to investigate city (to make sure something crazy like a coastal fortress or some such thing had not been rushed). Declared war, moved my transport to coast, woke 4 or 5 marines. SAVED GAME. Proceeded with attack -- wrote down, at the conclusion of each attack, the number of HPs lost by the fighters. For example, when my first 10 HP marine was destroyed but knocked off 3 HPs from the infantry, and my second 10 HP marine destroyed the 7 HP infantry but lost 8 HPs in the process, I would write down:

M -- I
10...3
8.....7
etc., etc., etc.

After the infantry died and the city was taken, I reloaded the saved game and re-commenced the attack. Continued apace for as long as it took to get to the graduation party .

Did the math. Posted results.

*****

Please let me know if you see anything in the set-up that would queer the results.

EDIT: spelling

 

[Vorlin]

Thanks, that question was like when you ask yourself "Did I lock the door when I left the house?". Once you ask it, you gotta find out for sure.

Nice job, btw.

 

[Koronin]

That's how I play as well. I just don't find it really worth building in this game.

But occasionally, I will use a captured one and put it in a stack of infantry/riflemen as you described.

I typically, only attack with movement 2+ units, starting with horsemen/mounted warrior all the way until modern armor.

Originally posted by DaDoo
I don't usually use artillary. I find them slowing down my war effort too much. I very much hate it when my knights/calvary/tanks have to slow down and wait for the cannon/artillary. So during combat on enemy territory, I send 2-3 stacks of 20 fast units against 1 city at a time. The only time I really find artillary useful is to stack them with infantry defensive units on a choke point. Once the AI's offensive unit is damaged, they'll beat a hasty retreat. Otherwise I don't have too many situation where I find artillary very critical.

 

[royfurr]

Has Firaxis told us, or has anyone figured out, the details of how a bombardment attack ON A UNIT acutally works? And is it the same for attacks on land as for sea units? This could be important in considering the desirability of artillery attacks, and potential modiificaion of the technique. IS it done in the same fashion as normal land combat?

Fer instance, take a 16 bombardment strength cruise missle launched at a 6/10/1 infantry or a 12/8/5 destroyer. If its computed like other combat, the stirke on the destroyer would be: DF 8 +10% for a defense of 8.8, so we have the chance of a hit (per each round of "rate of fire"??) at 16/(16+8.8) = 16/24.8 = 0.645, pretty devisatating. Against the infantry, lets assume they are on a hill, so they get a +50%, now we have 16/(16+10X1.5) = 16/31 = 0.516. But does bombardment attack work like this? With one "die roll" per "rate of fire" round?

Anyone got an idea, has Firaxis said anything?

 

[Catt]

I'm not sure if Firaxis has explained bombardment at the level of detail that you did, but I believe that the way you describe it is exactly how it works.

cracker posted (some time ago) a detailed proposal for altering (many would say improving) the way bombardment presently works in the game -- I'm sure if you do a search for "bombard*" AND "cracker" you can find the thread(s).