Community Patch only and interesting experiment vs. full VP

[TaPele]

Hello! So, in the last months I've been looking forward to play an improved version of Civ V (I mean, with a better AI) And one game with Smart AI and another one with Artificial Unintelligence, both with the AI pretty dumb, I decided to try VP.

There's pretty amazing stuff like the new buildings, units, tech tree and CS mechanics. But I also found some things i really dislike. For instance, the fact that almost every AI is friendly towards you and towards the other AIs (I known they're probably faking it, but it was a good vanilla mechanic to have hostile or cautious AIs)

That's what I mostly dislike about the mod. The lack of "geopolitical depth" so to say. But I also do not like the instant yields mechanics as well as the rework of the Social Policies (Progress is extremely OP compared to all of the others) or how slow and hard to deal with wars are (negotiating peace, siege, war weariness, etc. I hate war score too)

I ended up starting a new game only with the CP as all I wanted was vanilla Civ V with a decent AI. In the VP game I was last, with the first AI almost doubling my points. But surprisingly in the CP game I'm managing to be first.

So. Is the AI in the CP as good as the AI in VP? I also noticed some pretty weird things (bugs maybe?) while playing with the CP: I'm around the 150th turn and no AI has become the ally of a CS. It also surprised me that I can't run specialist in libraries. Are those things ok?

Thanks for reading!

 

[Anarcomu]

Can't say for the rest, but AFAIK libraries does not have specialist in the base game (and since CP barely change the base game outside of AIs, no reason you get it).

 

[Delvemor]

Which version are you playing with? Most of the AIs are usually not that friendly with either the human player or each other. For example if you simply exist next to Alexander or Hiawatha they will denounce you very early in the game and eventually declare war on you.

The lack of "geopolitical depth" so to say.

If you denounce and get at war with the same AIs as your friends you will often become part of an alliance stacked against another coalition which all like each other but don't like your side. You can then remain friends with those same AIs most of the time, until Ideologies kick in. Then it usually become more chaotic.

 

[TaPele]

Which version are you playing with? Most of the AIs are usually not that friendly with either the human player or each other. For example if you simply exist next to Alexander or Hiawatha they will denounce you very early in the game and eventually declare war on you.

If you denounce and get at war with the same AIs as your friends you will often become part of an alliance stacked against another coalition which all like each other but don't like your side. You can then remain friends with those same AIs most of the time, until Ideologies kick in. Then it usually become more chaotic.

I'm playing with the last version of VP. With eight AIs. In the last game that I play up to around turn 150 (quick speed) six were friendly and two neutral towards me. Several of them were friends with each other, though some denouncing and war had happened (Pachacuti and Pacal had a war) and Siam disliked Arabia. There's one detail that might be important: this map was an archipelago (shuffled) so AFAIC, the AI sucks when overseas invasions

In my first game I was at war with the Maya and the other neighbours were still friendly to me but I ended up quitting the game (in an older version) as it took forever to attack and take cities and Pacal defended quite decently. And the fact you can't sign peace whenever you want is also annoying

 

[Delvemor]

And the fact you can't sign peace whenever you want is also annoying

In standard speed it takes minimum 10 turns to be able to sign peace. No idea for quick speed but keep in mind VP is balanced around standard map size and speed. Also an archipelago map sure helps a lot to ease territorial tensions.

 

[Civrinn]

I only play full VP but I can tell you the AI is very good (for an AI of course). As far as the friendly thing goes, if you use the advanced option "Transparent Diplomacy" when you create a game, the AI will specifically tell you why its friendly / hostile. Things that might make it friendly would be "you are not competing for X (maybe wonders / science )". If what you are saying is true (you were last place) the AI probably didn't consider you a threat and had no reason to be hostile.

I would imagine that VP at this point is more difficult but I have no reason to go back to Vanilla Civ5 (with CP) after VP.

 

[TaPele]

if you use the advanced option "Transparent Diplomacy" when you create a game, the AI will specifically tell you why its friendly / hostile

Wow. Didn't know about it! I'll have this in mind. But, even with that option toggled off, when you hover over the attitude of an AI it alredy says "we are not competing for this or that" or "we have similar social policies"

 

[Civrinn]

Wow. Didn't know about it! I'll have this in mind. But, even with that option toggled off, when you hover over the attitude of an AI it alredy says "we are not competing for this or that" or "we have similar social policies"

Ahh, it has been a while since i have played without the option. The transparency must be the number values it shows as well.

That said, I can promise you the game can be very aggressive.

 

[TaPele]

Ahh, it has been a while since i have played without the option. The transparency must be the number values it shows as well.

That said, I can promise you the game can be very aggressive.

Oh I see.
And since you play with full VP, what do you think of the mod in general? Doesn't it happen to you that in the first eras all empires are friendly?

 

[azum4roll]

There's no reason to be hostile against you even for warmonger civs if you have the strongest army in the early game. The AI plays to win after all.

 

[Civrinn]

Oh I see.
And since you play with full VP, what do you think of the mod in general? Doesn't it happen to you that in the first eras all empires are friendly?

For reference I recently have been playing emporer difficulty, pangea and with one less civ then normal on a large map. I played on immortal prior but knocked it down a peg since the recent patch.

For me I find it all depends on what is going on. I have played a few America games recently trying out some new things. In one game I was neighbors with both Attila and the Mongols. Mongol first forward settled me at about 4 cities in. So I produced bowman and raised the city. Attila followed suit a few turns later and i raised his city. I ended up abandoning the game because I knew it was going to devolve into a forever war between mongols / me and attila until we all lost.

I have also had games where I have started uncomfortably close to people who aren't usually aggressive but it ends up in conflict as well.

My last America game i played, I actually did very well but apparently Ottomans decided to crush Brazil. This ended up escalating a cold war between me and the Ottomans.

I have had a few games (before patch) where everything was peaceful but in those games the AI was mostly going diplo / culture and didn't consider me a threat. They simply had no reason to be aggressive. I ended up having to be the aggressor.

Edit: I forgot to mention that if you are coming out with a strong religion early on the AI seems to be overly aggressive as well, so if you are giving up on religion that may be why your neighbors seem "peaceful".

 

[TaPele]

Sure. I guess I have to get used to see more friendly empires. At the end of the day, It makes sense that the AIs are friendly if I'm not a threat for them. Either way, I really dislike the policies tree, Progress is way OP and the rest are so complex and different from vanilla. I miss simple things as "Builds improvements 25% faster. Two workers spawn in the capital". IDK, I might even go back to vanilla for a while lol. But then I won't stand the AI not being a threat.

TBH my perfect Civ V experience would be vanilla + an AI that knows how to warfare: attacking first siege units, placing melee units in the front raws, "planning attacks", going with all their army and not an archer at a time. And also, knowing WHEN to attack. And being aggressive.

 

[mad hadder]

Not sure I fully agree that Progress is "way OP." I actually think that they are fairly well balanced! Progress is my preferred pick, but I think authority can actually be the most OP if you play it right. Just because by nature an aggressive strategy is usually best.

 

[TaPele]

Either, way isn't it weird that at turn 142 (standard speed) no AI has ever been allied with a city state? (I'm playing on King difficulty, with the CP only and have met all the other empires but one)

 

[TaPele]

See? Everyone is too friendly lol
Yes, I know what you might be thinking "just shut up and play" lol but when I find something strange and games aren't working properly I can't

 

[Delvemor]

Not sure what to tell you. It's almost as if you're looking for excuses not to make the transition. I myself got a bit of trouble adjusting at first, so I can understand. If you think AIs are not aggressive enough toward you, you should definitely tune up the difficulty.

Spoiler My current game as Morocco :

This is a screenshot of my current game as Morocco. As you can see Alexander is literally at war with half of the world, including me. He is actively attacking 3 of my cities and his allied city-state will probably capture Kathmandu, my own ally. This is on Immortal, pangea map, standard size and speed. I never played archipelago or quick speed as you mentioned so it could explain why your experience is different. But if you want an AI that will face your tanks with their own tanks instead of just lancers or gatling guns, vanilla won't do it. In fact, Alexander have Musketmen and Lancers and I don't because I prioritized getting the Sistine Chapel instead. So here I'm "punished" because I got greedy with wonders.

 

[rkkn]

See? Everyone is too friendly lol
Yes, I know what you might be thinking "just shut up and play" lol but when I find something strange and games aren't working properly I can't
View attachment 652769

France friendly with everyone? amazing. I have never seen this in VP ever

 

[azum4roll]

That might be a Tradition France. Or because the map has no border conflicts.

 

[Delvemor]

That might be a Tradition France. Or because the map has no border conflicts.

He mentioned that he is playing on archipelago map, therefore there won't be any border conflict until very late into the game.

 

[andersw]

A big reason why the AI is so hostile in vanilla (and this was true in vp too until they finally found this) is that the AI first make all the deals they need with other AIs and last with the human, which mean you're always at the short end of the stick.
I dont know the rest of the details but diplo was heavily screwing over humans compared to ai vs ai interaction.