Concepts for Espionage Mod

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Unlike C4, I think spies should mostly be valuable units for obtaining v. protecting information, rather than being little pests going around destroying improvements, poisoning people, etc. I found that all to be rather annoying in C4 (although I took full advantage of their capacities) ;)

I would be happy (happier) if I could simply build an 'invisible scout' called a "Spy" that could cross into other nations' borders undetected.

Here's some ideas for basic rules: Spies would advertise no nationality. Spies would be visible only to other spies. Spies could wage combat against only other spies. Spies could battle each other even if the host nations remained at peace. A fully defeated spy would be destroyed and would reveal its nationality.

Spies would have there own upgrade line allowing the player to specialize them for better espionage services or for better counter-espionage services (see C4 Super Spy mod).

Examples of promotions would be: deception (+20% of remaining undetected by enemy spy, etc.), evasion (+20% defensive bonus in combat). Other promotions might add movement or distance to sight. On the other hand, spies could be specialized to become better and better counter-spies by gaining upgrades to 'detection', 'detention' (offensive combat bonus vs. other spies), and interrogation (discovers what nation hosts the enemy spy).

I think that espionage could be handled in a way similar to social policies.....maybe money could be expended to unlock particular spy capabilities on an "espionage tree" upon obtaining corresponding technologies. Certain technologies would unlock 'espionage policies' that could be purchased and/or upgrades that would provide additional spy-abilities.

For example, with industrialism, the player would gain the ability to unlock the 'industrial espionage' policy, which would allow spies to move into a target city and, on the following turn, detect that city's production. Spies would also obtain other abilities like the ability to determine other nations' demographic information or the 'military espionage' ability that would provide a complete break down of the target nations' military (# of units and what types).

Also, I think buildings in cities should affect espionage. For example, the building of city walls would provide a city a +15% chance of detaining (destroying) an enemy spy (without the need of a counter-spy unit). A castle would be an additional 20% and so on. Other buildings would provide global advantages. Example: an intelligence agency might equate to -25% gold costs for additional espionage capacities on the 'espionage tree.'

In this system, espionage really wouldn't be an OP system because it would be mostly about info gathering/protection and not about destroying tile improvements etc. But, just to make sure players aren't spamming spies, and to reflect the high cost of maintaining an effective clandestine operation, spies and espionage-specialty buildings should cost quite a lot to maintain.

Finally, I think that espionage should be incorporated into diplomacy in various ways such as the option to demand that a nation stop spying or the option to declare war upon the destruction of an enemy spy.....

I dunno, what'cha think?
 
I think you got some nice ideas there, I also like having espionage in the game but disliked the constant poisoning and improvement destruction. The first job of a Spy should be to spy / gather information not constantly blowing things up.

Just a thought on limiting the number of spies. You could have the esionage buildings provide a specific resource that is used to build spies, like horses for horsemen and such. That combined with the building upkeep ensure that you dont have walls of spies covering the map. This would lead to bigger empires having more spies (Soviet Union?), by building only the tier 1 spy building in each city, but smaller empires might build a tier 1, 2, and 3 spy building to gain more spy resource, while having to spend more gold of course in upkeep.
 
I never liked the micromanaging of spy units. The passive bonuses from Civ4 were quite awesome and I'd like to see something on these lines return. In Civ5, with less information being available via demographics and no tech trade screens, city visibility or even just good information about the number of units, tech level and so on would be worth a lot and entirely sufficient for a non-intrusive, elegant and flavourful espionage system.
 
I think that you could make spies like air units, but with different kinds of abilities like the ones from BTS. Steeling techs, recon, finding out what your enemies are building. Where they are in research, stuff like that.
 
I never liked the micromanaging of spy units.

I didn't like how they operated in C4. It was extremely annoying that they returned to the capital after a successful mission. It was also annoying that they only moved one space at a time. I also disliked that my spies would simply disappear by the passive affect of the role of a die.....But, I actually did use my spies a lot, as basically scouts with benefits.

The passive bonuses from Civ4 were quite awesome and I'd like to see something on these lines return.

I liked the passive bonuses, but I personally wouldn't want an entirely passive system of conducting espionage. Specifically, I wouldn't want only global affects. Controlling the spy unit allows the player to obtain localized benefits to his/her espionage efforts, which often parallel the players larger strategy. I know I'm being sort of vague here.....

What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't want a system in which the player simply researched some techs, and then spent some money, and magically you can see all your neighbor's land. I think the global affects are a bit OP and a bit generic.

However, if the spy unit were eliminated, then I could see a system in which you researched certain techs, built certain buildings, and spent money to be able to see the production of a particular city, or the land around a particular city, or even the demographic of a civ for a turn, or the military info of a civ for a turn.........I could see something like that.

But, I would still want the spy unit and its unique ability to covertly operate inside your enemies borders -- even if only to observe troop movements on the eve of an invasion (for example). Besides, with so many turns in C5 involving just hitting the space bar, I would really appreciate having a little 'spy game-within-the-game' to have fun with and keep myself occupied.

In Civ5, with less information being available via demographics and no tech trade screens, city visibility or even just good information about the number of units, tech level and so on would be worth a lot and entirely sufficient for a non-intrusive, elegant and flavourful espionage system.

Exactly. Espionage (and the spy) should fill the void and be your eyes and ears collecting that oh so useful info. But, it should require real work to have an effective clandestine operation. I don't like the idea of a purely passive system.
 
Maybe passive is the wrong word, let's call it delocalized. The spy units are simply unnecessary, it would be much better to have a screen that allows you to select spy missions, like "spy on city x" where you can decide to put some espionage points in. Espionage could, similar to civ4, be created by building and funding agencies. Alternatively, you could use missions that reveal a city for a while and have a timeout.

The main problem with espionage in pretty much every game I played so far is that you don't get much of a benefit from it, so it should be tied into the AI decision-making processes. For example, you should get spy reports when a civ is likely to attack you if you have sufficient political espionage against them. Just the visibility is (probably) not going to be enticing enough to make up for a significant investment.

Alternatively, you could tie espionage to population, like science. That way, you'd always have some basic info about other civs if you spend points on them, but would have to go to some lengths to get more interesting things like seeing their tech tree or cities or something.
 
I never liked the micromanaging of spy units. The passive bonuses from Civ4 were quite awesome and I'd like to see something on these lines return.

I agree. Actually, in my mod I've started on this; I created a bunch of future-tech wonders that do a lot of what spy units handled in Civ4. There's no detailed Espionage Point system or anything, just some wonders whose effects happen to be a bit more "offensive" in nature than the norm. But the point is that many of the core concepts can be done through LUA, meaning all you'd need to work out is a new "front end" to manage it.

For instance, I have a new National Wonder, the Nethack Terminus. At the moment, one of the things it does is tell you if any other civs are within 10 turns of completing a World Wonder: which civ, which city, and how many turns left (approximately). Basically, if there's anything to report it creates a "Espionage Report" notification on the right side of the screen each turn.
Really, this could be done much earlier in the game (an Intelligence Agency national wonder, for instance) in a generic way (maybe just give which civ, no city or turns remaining), and you could easily add more, like notifications when another civ hits some benchmark.
The thing is, while there isn't a lot of info being given out by the default game, it's trivial to install something like the InfoScreen mod to give more detailed readings of how the other civs are doing in each area (total population, military strength, etc.). So there's not as much reason to integrate more of this into the espionage; focus more on the OTHER aspects of spying.

Or better yet, remember the Internet from Civ4, that gave you a tech if 3 other civs had it? I've already implemented that functionality into my mod; I've got a National Wonder (Planetary Datalinks) that gives you a tech if 4 others have it, and an endgame World Wonder (Telepathic Matrix) that gives you a tech if even ONE other player has it.
If you put something like this into the game, then there really isn't a need for a spy unit that can steal technologies. Or use the logic from the Tech Diffusion mod (over in Mod Components) and just tweak the numbers.

And then there are the other things you can do. While the core game doesn't support it, it wasn't hard to code LUA to affect enemy players in whatever way you want. For instance, in my mod I've got the Dream Twister (all other civs get a permanent penalty to happiness once you build it) and the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm (all foreign units in your territory get a temporary negative promotion. This "demotion" goes away when they go back to their own territory or any neutral territory.) It wouldn't be hard to modify this. For instance, what if every civ at war with you had -1 food in each city? That's easy enough to do with LUA.

So bottom line, I think this could be done very well without needing a dedicated spy unit, especially since those spies are something that the AI has never handled well.
 
spies are something that the AI has never handled well.

I'm not sure that's true. For the most part, I remember the AI in C4 using spies in most all the ways in which a spy could be used -- destroying improvements, poisoning things, stealing techs, etc.


one of the things it does is tell you if any other civs are within 10 turns of completing a World Wonder: which civ, which city, and how many turns left.....this could be done much earlier in the game.....in a generic way.....all other civs get a permanent penalty to happiness.....every civ at war with you had -1 food in each city......all foreign units in your territory get a temporary negative promotion......

That's exactly what I wouldn't want in an espionage system. A passive, generic, global, and OP tool passing as espionage. I suppose it could be nerfed and made to be civ specific -- so that the player only received notifications re: civs that the player had invested resources into spying against......it's just not nearly an active enough system......I mean, most aspects in the game could be made passive systems, but that just isn't fun.
 
I suppose it could be nerfed and made to be civ specific -- so that the player only received notifications re: civs that the player had invested resources into spying against...

Yes, don't confuse the effect with the cause. If you could implement some sort of "espionage level" system, through a custom UI interface (possibly cannibalizing the city-state bribery system logic), then it'd be trivial to link the amount of detail in the updates to the level of espionage system on that civ.

My point was that A) It's easy to create a customizable "Espionage Report" notification to allow the player easy access to whatever spy reports you want, and B) LUA stubs are already in place to make most of this sort of thing trivial to code. Because really, why else would there be a function for "number of turns left to complete this building"?

Given the current construction of the game, the easiest solution was to link these to Wonders, which is what I did for my mod so far. But if you have the time and inclination, I'm sure you could develop something more elaborate.
For instance, let's say that Espionage Level (EL) goes from 0 to 5 for a given civ. Then it'd just go like this:
> If EL=0, you get nothing about that civ.
> If EL=1 or 2, you're told if a civ is within 3 turns of completing a Wonder, but not which city it's in or exactly how many turns.
> If EL=3 or 4, you're told if a civ is within 5 turns of completing a Wonder, and which city it's in, but not the exact number of turns.
> If EL=5, you're told if they're within 10 turns, which city, and exactly how many turns are left.
Then add a second notification for technologies:
> If EL=2 or 3, you're told when another civ gains a new technology.
> If EL=4 or 5, you're also told what they've chosen to research next.

It'd dynamically generate your tooltip based on the EL level of each civ, and output the result. And you could still bring Wonders into it; for instance, make a wonder that adds +1 to the EL of all civs, or that decreases the cost of increasing it by a level, or whatever.

it's just not nearly an active enough system......I mean, most aspects in the game could be made passive systems, but that just isn't fun.

Active does not imply Fun. That's the biggest problem with the Spy system they had in most of the previous Civ games, or SMAC: you'd spend a lot of time micromanaging a bunch of spy units, for little gain and very little Fun. In SMAC, for instance, you'd make these custom Probe units, send them towards an enemy's empire, and hope they got their intact since any combat unit could destroy them easily. If they got there, you'd tell them to steal a technology (or money, if there were no more techs to get), and half the time they'd die in the process.
It was horribly unbalanced (a smart player was NEVER at a tech disadvantage), but more importantly, it wasn't FUN, and it just took time away from the rest of the game.

So think in Civ5 terms; look at city-states, for instance. The "active" thing to do would be to have a Diplomat unit that you'd build in your cities, move to a CS's territory, and sacrifice (like a Great Merchant) to increase relationships. But that's not fun, so instead, we have a system where you just click on the CS, select the size of the bribe you want, and you're done. Far less time is spent micromanaging the process, and you get the same effect. This frees you more time to use on the "core" gameplay.

And as I said above, that might be the easiest solution. Create a UI window where each civ has an "Espionage Level" that decays in the same way city-state Influence does. Let a player increase his EL towards a specific civ by spending 250, 500, or 1000 gold, just like with city-states. Then, all you need to do is link the rewards to different levels of EL (as I discussed above), and you're done.
 
It was horribly unbalanced (a smart player was NEVER at a tech disadvantage), but more importantly, it wasn't FUN, and it just took time away from the rest of the game.
It seems we agree pretty much completely about Espionage (and again have hijacked a thread, lol). We should also accept that some people do like this kind of micromanagement, though. There is a mod that does exactly what you describe with diplomat units, for example, and I know people who enjoyed the caravans in Civ2.

I, too, don't think it would be very hard to code but I do think it would be hard to design a spy system that would be really fun and meaningful. The way it worked in Civ4 wasn't very fun, I mostly used it as a tool to get city info and in some broken games where I had my own religion nobody shared for tech stealing at a huge discount (now those were really broken - you could beeline to something ridiculously deep in the tech tree and steal the rest from the AI). I consider InfoAddict to be a huge advantage for the player over vanilla, and would really like to turn it into a gameplay system.

The one drawback the active system introduced for the player is the hammer cost for espionage missions but this can be simulated in a less micromanagement-heavy way I believe.
 
Caravans in civ2 versus trade routes. Workers in civ versus civil improvement points in CTP. Spy units versus "global" or interface espionage mechanisms. I don't have an absolute preference in any of these. Sometimes I like to drive the individual unit around. Sometimes that feels like a lot of useless labor. In general, I can enjoy the "unit" approach if:
  1. I have some attachment to the individual units. This can be met by having spy specific promotion progression, having spies not simply disappear (or if so, only rarely), having to meet special conditions (buildings/wonders/policy) to build, etc.
  2. Some interesting and effective options, not just annoying (but almost worthless) options like sabotage improvement.
  3. Having a unit system always causes some micromanagement, but don't compound this with additional micro mechanisms like the return to capital. The spy unit should go about her business until countered (there have to be some limits, of course, beyond just cash; things like turn requirements, etc., to perform tasks can work).
I could be just about as happy with a pure "interface" system. But again, the devil is in the details. Sometimes an interface system can be even more intrusive/annoying than a unit system. I was happy with civ4bts passive effects.

There is also the approach where you have a combination of empire-wide/interface decisions and unit management. Something like the point system/spy units of civ4bts. I have to say, I didn't really enjoy this. I'm not sure why -- it sounds pretty cool in principle. Not sure whether it was a problem with the overall approach or the specific implementation (things like complaints 2 and 3 above).
 
and again have hijacked a thread

Actually, I really appreciate this feedback -- it's constructive I hope! But, since I'm not a modder (got to learn eventually), I am always happy to have the opportunity to discuss things with those who do mod. So, I thought about alpaca and spatz's feedback and wrote down some ideas. Here they are.....tell me what you think. Sorry about the length.....


This is a very rough outline….obviously the numbers are quite arbitrary and the details are raw….I appreciate your feedback!


In this proposed system, there will be two different forms of espionage available to the player.
1. “Espionage Operations”: a system based on options provided to the player, accessed by simply clicking on a city and then choosing the “Conduct Espionage” option. A new screen opens (like the City-State diplomacy screen) and the player then has a list of options with correlating costs. Espionage Operations become available with the discovery of Writing.

2. “Information Gathering”: a passive system based on investment of money. Operates similar to bribing of City-States. The extent of information available to the player is based on the size of the investment, which deteriorates over time. There are 3 levels of investment available to the player. Information gathering does not become available until a new tech, “Real Politiks” is discovered.

3. Espionage Operations & Information Gathering features will increase in future eras. However, the cost is always dependent on the era and infrastructure of the target civilization, offset by infrastructure built by player.

Example, although Espionage Operations and Information Gathering costs more in modern era, if the target civilization is the ancient era, then it will be extremely cheap to conduct operations or gather info from that civ. Conversely, if a classical civ is attempting to conduct operations or gather info from a modern civ, then it will be extremely expensive (if not impossible).

4. The cost of Espionage Operations & Information Gathering investments depends on several factors including: the era, the particular operation, the level of investment, and the “counter-espionage” infrastructure that the target civilization has constructed. This counter-espionage infrastructure also helps determine the rate of success of Espionage Operations & whether or not the player’s nationality is revealed following a successful or unsuccessful operation.

5. In this system, there would be need for an actual "spy" unit.


More details below….


WRITING:
Allows “Espionage.”
1. Player would click on a foreign city.

2. After clicking on city, options would pop up -- talk to owner or “Conduct Espionage Operations”.

3. If player selected Conduct Espionage Operations, player would enter a screen that looks like the City-State screen. Diplomatic info would be available in the screen. Also, a list of options would be available along with the corresponding gold cost.

4. With discovery of Writing, options for espionage missions would include:
a. Spy tiles adjacent to selected city;
b. Spy inside selected city – see selected city’s city screen, including production, but not number of turns remaining.

5. Note: there is a base 10% chance that espionage missions will fail and/or that the nationality will be revealed (two separate rolls of the dice).

6. Note: Palace provides following benefits to counter-espionage: additional 15% chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations in the city will fail and/or the nationality of offender will be revealed (local effect).


MASONRY:
Player can build “Walls” – 10% chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations in the city will fail and/or nationality will be revealed. (Benefit to counter-espionage obsolete with Economics.)


CHIVALRY:
Player can build “Castle” – additional 10% chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations in the city will fail and/or nationality will be revealed. (Benefit to counter-espionage obsolete with Economics.)


REAL POLITIKS (new tech):
requires Banking & Printing Press.
1. Player may build a “Police Department.”
a. Has a local effect, making all foreigners’ Espionage Operations in the city cost an additional 15%.
b. Also, there is a 15% increased chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations in the city will fail and/or the nationality will be revealed.

2. Player gains the option of “Information Gathering.”
a. Player can select a civilization to gather info from through the ‘Espionage screen.’

b. Info Gathering operates similar to bribing City-States in the following ways:
i. Information Gathering is a tiered system, such that the information available from the selected civilization depends on the initial investment.
ii. If player invests in highest level of info-gathering, then he would also obtain the info provided at lower levels of investment. For example, if a player invests enough to reach the 3rd-level of info gathering, then the player would also obtain the benefits of the 1st and 2nd levels.
iii. The investment deteriorates over time so that the less info will be available over time.

c. Note: more information at each level of investment becomes available with discovery of new technologies and upon entering new eras. However, the cost also increases and deteriorates more quickly.

3. Through Information Gathering, the following levels of information would be available upon discovery of Real Politiks:
Level 1: Demographic information – can access the demographic info of selected civ.

Level 2:
i. Technological information – 1 turn after the fact, player informed that the target civilization has researched a technology and what that technology was. Example: “Last turn, X discovered Economics.”
ii. Also, player will be informed when target civilization has built the first of a new military unit. Example: “X has built its first musketman.”

Level 3:
i. Major Building information – player informed when target civ is within 5 turns of completing nat’l or world wonder & informed of the location.
ii. Also, player will be informed when target civilization is beginning to build the first of a new unit. Example: “X is beginning to build its first rifleman.”


4. Player may build National Wonder, “Scotland Yard.”
a. Global effect
b. Must have Police Department built in the city.
i. Increases foreign civilizations’ cost to Espionage Operations & Information Gathering by 15%.
ii. 15% increased chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations in all cities will fail and/or the nationality will be revealed


INDUSTRIAL ERA :
Upon entering new era, new spy missions and information gathering capacities are added to reflect increased importance of “Industrial Espionage.”
1. New options from “Conduct Espionage” list:
a. After paying to enter city-screen of target city, player will now see how many turns until production completed.
b. Player may hinder production of item for 1 turn. Cost is dependent on whether unit, building, or wonder – and it would be expensive.
c. May repeat consecutive turns. However, cost of conducting action in same city increases by 25% each time throughout the game.

2. Additional benefits from Information Gathering:
Level 1:
i. In addition to demographic info, player will now discover what technology the target civilization has researched 1 turn after completion.
ii. Also, player will now also be informed when target civilization has built the first of a new military unit.
Level 2:
i. Player will now discover what new technology the target civilization is beginning to research.
ii. Also, player will now also be informed when target civilization is beginning to build the first of a new unit. Example: “X is beginning to build its first rifleman.”
Level 3:
i. Player will now be informed when target civ is within 10 turns of completing nat’l or world wonder & will be informed of the location.
ii. Player will now have access to target civ’s military demographics. Example: a complete breakdown of the # of each unit – 6 rifleman, 5 frigates, 4 cannons, etc…


RAILROAD :
May build National Wonder, “Security Bureau”
1. Global effect.
2. Must have police station built in city.
3. All foreigners’ Espionage Operations & Info Gathering costs additional 15%.
4. Also, within all players’ cities, there is a 20% increased chance that foreigners’ Espionage Operations will fail and/or the nationality will be revealed.


MODERN ERA:
Upon entering new era, new spy missions and information gathering capacities are added to reflect the changing role of espionage.
1. New options from “Conduct Espionage” list:
Player will gain the ability to conduct “Black Operations” in selected foreign civilization.
i. CIV4 style options: stir dissent, assassination, destroy buildings, etc…..or best, a whole new set of options.
ii. Player must be Level 3 invested in info gathering within the target civilization in order to engage in black-ops.
Base percentage that nationality will be revealed decreased by 15%

2. Additional benefits from Information Gathering options:
Level 1:
i. Demographic info.
ii. Player will discover what technology the target civilization has researched, now on the turn it is completed. Also, now, the player will now learn what tech the civilization is researching next.
iii. Player will not only be informed when target civilization has built the first of a new military unit, but also when target civilization is beginning to build the first of a new unit.
Level 2:
i. Player will now be able to access the strategic resource info of the selected foreign civilization.
ii. Player will now have access to target a complete breakdown of foreign civ’s military demographics.
Level 3:
i. Player will now be informed when target civ has begun construction of a nat’l or world wonder & will be informed of the location.
ii. Player may conduct Black Operations from the “Conduct Espionage” set of options.


ELECTRONICS :
May build National Wonder, “Intelligence Agency”
1. Global effect.
2. Must have built Security Bureau in any city.
3. Players’ own Espionage Operations costs are reduced by 15%.
4. Also, players’ chance of success in conducting Espionage Operations increased 15%.
5. Cost of Information Gathering reduced by 15%.


COMPUTERS :
1. Adds option, “Steal Technology” to Espionage operations.
2. Must have Level 2 espionage investment.


SATELLITES :
1. Can see all target civilization’s land including units thereon.
2. Must have Level 3 espionage investment.


GLOBALIZATION:
May construct World Wonder, “International Security.”
1. Player must have built Security Bureau & Intelligence Agency.
2. Players’ own Espionage operations costs are reduced by 15%.
3. Also, players’ chance of success in conducting Espionage operations increased 15%.
4. Cost of information gathering reduced 15%.



DIPLOMACY CONSEQUENCES:
If a foreign spy is caught conducting Foreign Operations and the nationality is revealed, the player should have the option of: 1) diplomatic immunity; 2) making a public declaration; 3) closing borders and ending trade relations; 4) threatening war upon next violation; 5) declaring war.

Modernly, if a foreign spy is caught conducting Black Operations and nationality is revealed, player should have the option of declaring the offending nation, “a rogue state.”

All these options should have diplomatic consequences…..


What’cha think?
 
I always thought "steal tech" was all to easy. But it's not unrealistic - take how the Chinese are "borrowing" American military tech right now, for example. Wouldn't it be interesting if your spy unit had to steal the tech, and then return to a friendly city to complete the "steal"? And what if the enemy was given a notification of a rogue spy trying to escape so he could attempt to thwart it?
 
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