Conditioned Technological Development

[ProkhorZakharov]

I'm not trying to be rude here, but why exactly is this a good idea? I think having many short tech branches is a disadvantage; it reduces the feeling of progression you get when you complete a tech. Sure, you get the immediate benefit, but you don't feel like you're progressing towards your ultimate goal.

On top of that, I find it quite annoying when a game tells me, "no, you can't do this, because you haven't fulfilled this particular criteria", unless there is a very good mechanical reason for it (e.g. tech prerequisites, because that's essential to the structure of the tech tree). It restricts the options available to the player. For example, if I want to do a one-city challenge, I can't get The Wheel, or any of the technologies that stem from it. If I want to save up my culture, do a Civil Service slingshot, then get half the Patronage tree, I'm not allowed to. Other techs require you to do pointless busywork, like building a wall. Worst of all is the Fertilizer requirement - it's right on the military tech line, which is most wanted by precisely the same players who don't want to build a terrible building in all of their many conquered cities.

 

[V. Soma]

I'm not trying to be rude here, but why exactly is this a good idea? I think having many short tech branches is a disadvantage; it reduces the feeling of progression you get when you complete a tech. Sure, you get the immediate benefit, but you don't feel like you're progressing towards your ultimate goal.

I think that a main tree towards the ultimate goal - which I believe is a tech developed civ and Scientific victory -
can be achieved for all civs in the game. Or at least should be, and I hope the conditions be made up so.

The short side-branches:
They are to give the civ advantages that are kind of optional:
like: not every civ has a coastal city - well, those civs wil not go the naval branch.
But the civ can develop, along the main tree, and get to future era and Space.

On top of that, I find it quite annoying when a game tells me, "no, you can't do this, because you haven't fulfilled this particular criteria", unless there is a very good mechanical reason for it (e.g. tech prerequisites, because that's essential to the structure of the tech tree). It restricts the options available to the player.

I think the conditions with this mod is to give some "life" to the techs, some "meaning".
OK, I call a tech "Sailing", but if I am stuck in a land of hills and plains , sorrounded by all mountains,
why would I learn a thing called "Sailing"? It really doesn't make sense to me.
Then do not call it Sailing, call it "Tech II/1" that gives you this and that. But don't try to be immersive with a name like "Sailing", this is a cheap trick this way.

In my mind the game's reality: geography, your civ's actions, development are prerequisites, conditions that give base for the techs,
this makes it more real, to me, more fun.

The tech tree shall be redisegned. It is to see how it can be made.

Yes, maybe at some point the civ cannot have a next texh, until criteria are met.
I don't find it that terrible, by the way, though it is a surprisingly novel possibility, I admit that. So, restrictions? Maybe, but well, play not to suffer them.
I hope the conditions can be made to be felt OK, natural, and well, fun.

For example, if I want to do a one-city challenge, I can't get The Wheel, or any of the technologies that stem from it.

Correct, good point. OCC shall be taken into account. Special conditions for that case.

If I want to save up my culture, do a Civil Service slingshot, then get half the Patronage tree, I'm not allowed to.

One thing you cannot do... OK. This mod (if it will be one) will not be forced to be played!

Other techs require you to do pointless busywork, like building a wall. Worst of all is the Fertilizer requirement - it's right on the military tech line, which is most wanted by precisely the same players who don't want to build a terrible building in all of their many conquered cities.

The conditions I put up now are my first ideas, I came up with these, but they are not set in stone, you see - you can suggest another one,
and if here the community finds it better, then the former will be replaced.

 

[ProkhorZakharov]

I think that a main tree towards the ultimate goal - which I believe is a tech developed civ and Scientific victory -
can be achieved for all civs in the game. Or at least should be, and I hope the conditions be made up so.

The short side-branches:
They are to give the civ advantages that are kind of optional:
like: not every civ has a coastal city - well, those civs wil not go the naval branch.
But the civ can develop, along the main tree, and get to future era and Space.

Sure, occasional side branches are fine, I think they worked quite well in FFH2. However, when around half the techs you research are on side branches, you run into the problems I mentioned above.

I think the conditions with this mod is to give some "life" to the techs, some "meaning".
OK, I call a tech "Sailing", but if I am stuck in a land of hills and plains , sorrounded by all mountains,
why would I learn a thing called "Sailing"? It really doesn't make sense to me.
Then do not call it Sailing, call it "Tech II/1" that gives you this and that. But don't try to be immersive with a name like "Sailing", this is a cheap trick this way.

In my mind the game's reality: geography, your civ's actions, development are prerequisites, conditions that give base for the techs,
this makes it more real, to me, more fun.

The decision of what tech to research should be left to the player, not the game. If I haven't seen water, I'm not going to research sailing, but at least it's my choice. In your system, the government still has to to step in and say, "OK, all the scientists in the empire are now going to work on inventing something called "gunpowder"". If you actually want to simulate "real" research, you need to prevent the player from making any tech decisions, and base tech research on the player's in-game actions. For example, building a library makes you more likely to research Philosophy, and building soldiers makes you more likely to research Iron Working. I believe Blind Research in SMAC worked somewhat like this. Personally, I think that's a terrible idea, as it removes a huge amount of strategic decision-making from the player in the name of realism.

So, restrictions? Maybe, but well, play not to suffer them.
I hope the conditions can be made to be felt OK, natural, and well, fun.

Playing not to suffer restrictions is itself restrictive. You still are restricted in not having the option to avoid building libraries, walls, cities, mines, etc.

Correct, good point. OCC shall be taken into account. Special conditions for that case.

A good game, or in this case mod, strives to avoid exceptions and special conditions. One-city challenge was just one example of a strategy that's invalidated by your system. You can't hope to allow them all, and if you do, you're back to the current system of free research.

One thing you cannot do... OK. This mod (if it will be one) will not be forced to be played!

The number of strategies available under your system is significantly less than the number of strategies available under the current system. A player playing with your mod will almost certainly, at multiple points throughout the game, be told, "stop, you can't go any further, take a time-out until you finish this criterion". Given that two of the biggest complaints about Civ V are that it's too slow and empire-building has too few options available, I don't think your mod would be very successful.

 

[V. Soma]

In OP I attached a tech tree sketch for illustration

 

[UWHabs]

For something like this to work, you'd need to put in for every tech something like "or be an era ahead." So perhaps you start on the great plains and have no hills around, you would be locked out of mining. But if you change it so that if you've researched to the next era, it automatically "unlocks" the previous era.

Blind research (like in SMAC where you set your preference, or where actions lead to more beakers towards techs) is the sort of thing that's fun because it's different. I loved SMAC, partly because some games I would like the challenge of blind research, but I had the option of starting a game like normal where I could choose my research. It's certainly something that I would much rather have as an optional feature. I certainly understand why people don't like it, but that's precisely the reason why it's fun.

 

[V. Soma]

For something like this to work, you'd need to put in for every tech something like "or be an era ahead." So perhaps you start on the great plains and have no hills around, you would be locked out of mining. But if you change it so that if you've researched to the next era, it automatically "unlocks" the previous era.

Blind research (like in SMAC where you set your preference, or where actions lead to more beakers towards techs) is the sort of thing that's fun because it's different. I loved SMAC, partly because some games I would like the challenge of blind research, but I had the option of starting a game like normal where I could choose my research. It's certainly something that I would much rather have as an optional feature. I certainly understand why people don't like it, but that's precisely the reason why it's fun.

I think I agree on both things: the "era unlocks past era techs" and that this whole thing to be optional...

 

[V. Soma]

I added things to the OP:

- new idea: Speeding Conditions (SC)
- SC put up for the Ancient Era

 

[Camikaze]

Yeah, I do think those Speeding Conditions do add something to the idea.

 

[V. Soma]

I made my last poll a long time age... can I add one here or I have to start a new thread?

 

[V. Soma]

I keep on thinking on the SCs, Classical Era added...
I welcome suggestions, tuning, opinion...

 

[Scilly_guy]

This isn't the first time this idea has been made but it is certainly the most thorough I have come across and I applaud you for your dedication. Personally I love it, keep up the good work and I hope it gets a well made mod.

 

[V. Soma]

Thanks, Scilly guy, and since then I am done with Middle ages era SC, as well

 

[Gatsby]

However, it would seem that it would be possible to be severely hamstrung by geography. What if you don't have horses nearby? How do you continue along the path that horseback riding is on (assuming it is on a path of some sort)?

Exactly - furthermore, why would you (as a civ) continue along the horseback riding tech path? Necessity is the mother of invention, and has been throughout history.

Provided the tech tree was structured carefully - for example, making certain "core" techs available to all civs regardless of local geography and other exogenous conditions, but able to be researched faster with certain resources and knowledge of other "non-core" techs - I think this idea could really work and would be a great addition to Civ.

 

[V. Soma]

Exactly - furthermore, why would you (as a civ) continue along the horseback riding tech path? Necessity is the mother of invention, and has been throughout history.

Provided the tech tree was structured carefully - for example, making certain "core" techs available to all civs regardless of local geography and other exogenous conditions, but able to be researched faster with certain resources and knowledge of other "non-core" techs - I think this idea could really work and would be a great addition to Civ.

In the OP I attached a tech tree sketch, and in that - for example - Horseback Riding is in a short line of techs:
Animal Husbandry - Horseback Riding - Chivalry

I see that there will be new techs for Lancer and Cavalry in this line,
and these new two techs will have to be worked out, but this should definitely follow the "core", "non-core" basis...

 

[Scilly_guy]

You don't need new techs for the Lancer and Cavalry, you could acquire access to them via their current techs even though its not in the same line, you just need Horseback riding or Chivalry as a prerequisite. There have been times in our history when technologies for one purpose have been used for another, I can't think of any prime examples now but I know they are out there; Gunpowder can be used for fireworks & mining or for weaponry.

 

[V. Soma]

You don't need new techs for the Lancer and Cavalry, you could acquire access to them via their current techs even though its not in the same line, you just need Horseback riding or Chivalry as a prerequisite. There have been times in our history when technologies for one purpose have been used for another, I can't think of any prime examples now but I know they are out there; Gunpowder can be used for fireworks & mining or for weaponry.

Sure, but if a tech offers a unit that is not "core" (because it depends on a resource),
then the tech must not give items that are "core", that are necessary for development.
If this is OK with the tech, then it can be not in the same line, though I think it cannot be solved,
and that there must be separate lines for the different strategic resources...

 

[V. Soma]

I have done Spec. Conditions to all tech eras... so it is complete...

 

[Pooh]

Would it make sense to make it a sufficient condition to research a given technology that you have relations with a civilization that has it? Going with this sailing example - it makes sense that a landlocked civ wouldn't discover sailing on its own. But, having met a seafaring civ, why wouldn't its scholars be able to learn the secrets of the craft? Imagine the use of small sailing vessels and barges on all of the little invisible rivers if it helps (I'm assuming that the rivers depicted in Civ are major rivers - St. Lawrence, Mississippi, Amazon, Nile, Rhein, Yangtze... you get the picture).

 

[V. Soma]

Would it make sense to make it a sufficient condition to research a given technology that you have relations with a civilization that has it? Going with this sailing example - it makes sense that a landlocked civ wouldn't discover sailing on its own. But, having met a seafaring civ, why wouldn't its scholars be able to learn the secrets of the craft? Imagine the use of small sailing vessels and barges on all of the little invisible rivers if it helps (I'm assuming that the rivers depicted in Civ are major rivers - St. Lawrence, Mississippi, Amazon, Nile, Rhein, Yangtze... you get the picture).

Hm, yes, so if you know a civ and if that civ has the tech researched,
then you also become able to research...

I would say OK

But how is this:
you must have open borders with the civ plus a Pact of Cooperation

 

[Camikaze]

I made my last poll a long time age... can I add one here or I have to start a new thread?

You'll need to start a new thread (and make sure you check the 'include a poll' option somewhere below the text reply box).

Would it make sense to make it a sufficient condition to research a given technology that you have relations with a civilization that has it? Going with this sailing example - it makes sense that a landlocked civ wouldn't discover sailing on its own. But, having met a seafaring civ, why wouldn't its scholars be able to learn the secrets of the craft? Imagine the use of small sailing vessels and barges on all of the little invisible rivers if it helps (I'm assuming that the rivers depicted in Civ are major rivers - St. Lawrence, Mississippi, Amazon, Nile, Rhein, Yangtze... you get the picture).

This might be a better qualifier than eras, but perhaps it would require that 3 or 4 other civs have the tech before you can research it, if you do not have the necessary prerequisites to do so yourself.