Conquest 04: First Spoiler

[killerloop]

predator

Sir Pleb,

tx for your explanation.

new reflections:
as I had my granary up and running at 2900 (w/o chopping the forest), I directly was in a 4-6 settler pump. I didn't want the 4.5-6.5 for happiness reasons.

Using your logic on the strength of a settler, worth around 10-13 pop if produced lets say before ~2000BC, we need to compare this with 2 workers, who will mine and road hills/grass, which on avg takes 7-9 turns (1 move, 2 road, 4-6 mining). I need to dig some deeper in the math, but for 50 turns having 2 workers, or having a settler is something that doesn't look easy to compare.

On this map, with the fertile land, rivers and agricultural trait, my 1st intuition goes in the direction of settler, because of its ability to re-create
Advantages of early workers that come to mind:
-New settlers can settle earlier, because of the roads workers make.
-Some extra shields/beakers for building/science/happiness, however a settler has this too.
-Linking up resources earlier, military netwwork (depends on goal)
-You need workers! Building them in 2 turns, and replacing pop in 2 turns is worth something, a settler 1st needs to build granary and have 5 food in spare to accomplish the same. But you could build the workers later in the game.., when would be the best time then???

I guess I can need some input here from the forum, any thoughts around on this topic?
Question:
What's worth more for civ building, 2 workers @ 2710BC or 1 settler @ 2710BC. Input could be general, or specific to COTM04.

tx, Killerloop

 

[grs]

@killerloop: In my games I always try to get a second town before I build any additional workers. I can only see very rare circumstances to prefer the 2 workers this early - a xcc for example and a 1cc especially

I would also prefer to get the first settler out before I set up the settler factory, but here the map and civ make a big difference. If I can get the settler factory very fast (i.e. double cow; beiing agri and maybe even ind.) I would prefer granary before settler, but otherwise I just like to secure more area.

 

[RFHolloway]

Almost every time I build a settler in the early game he is a fairly short-term investment which I expect will soon be converted to new citizens and/or workers. The settler costs me two citizens wherever I produce him. Suppose he settles after moving for four turns. He then forms a town with one citizen. At a location with no food bonuses, ten turns later he's a town with two citizens. So far I've lost four turns of 2 citizens' work and ten turns of 1 citizen. Now I'm breaking even. In another ten turns I start gaining - I have 3 citizens in the new town. In a total of 28 turns after producing the settler I have finally broken even, I've had the same number of "citizen turns" of work done as I would have if I had not built the settler. And from then on I'm gaining.

You are gaining even faster than that, don't forget the city square itself! Also you don't have to pay food support for that 'hidden' citizen. That means you lose the production of 2 citizens for 4 turns, but once you settle you are already up 2 surplus food, (or even 3 in this case), provided the city square and the newly worked square is at least as good as the original squares.

 

[DJMGator13]

Opening move
I started by moving my settler NE and founded my capital on the second turn. I built 1 warrior and then timed my growth to coincide with my first settler in 3250BC. I then built a granary, which completed as Chichen Itza grew to size 4 in 2510BC. From this point on my capital was a 4-turn settler factory. All my settlers came from this factory.

Neighbors & techs
I met my first neighbor, the Americans, in 2850BC. This followed with the discovery of the Aztecs in 2670BC. It took me a while to find the other 2 native tribes. I found the Iroquois in 1600BC and Spain in 1325BC. I cannot remember a game where I researched as many AA techs as I did in this game. I researched 8 techs on my own by 450BC. I usually do more trading for techs.

Stupid Aztecs
In 975BC the Aztecs had gone on a military buildup and surpassed me in strength. So when they became “strong” compared to me the demanded Mysticism. I refused and they declared war on me the turn before I became a republic. What resulted was my horsemen rolling over them and capturing their 4 largest cities, I then sued for peace gaining Map Making, 3 additional cities and 70 gold. I have left the AZT with 5 cities all size 1 or 2 and the task of claiming all that southern tundra for me to capture at my pleasure.

I have also intentionally not triggered my Golden Age yet, but plan to do it when I attack America very soon, need to shift my troops from Aztec land first.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
QSC SUMMARY 1000BC
2 turns of anarchy left in revolt to Republic
12 cities
139 tiles claimed
POP 36 in city size

Cities
Chichen Itza 3950BC
Copan 3050BC
Palenque 2190BC
Tikal 1990BC
Yaxchilan 1675BC
Bonampak 1675BC
Lagartero 1625BC
Quirigua 1525BC
Calakmul 1225BC
Lazapa 1225BC
Kaminaljuyu 1125BC
Piedras Negras 1025BC

City Improvements
1 Granary
3 Barracks

Military - 17 units
5 workers
3 warriors
6 horsemen
2 Javelin Throwers
1 curragh
plus 3 slave workers
Lost 3 warriors & a curragh to barbs

Techs
MAS - 4000BC
POT - 4000BC
WC - 2670BC trade
BW - 2670BC trade
WHEEL - 2510BC researched
CB - 2070BC trade
HBR - 1830BC researched
ALPHA - 1830BC trade
IW - 1725BC trade
WRIT - 1500BC researched
COL - 1200BC reserched
MYST - 1150BC trade
PHIL - 1075BC researched
REP - 1075BC from PHIL
MATH - 1075BC trade
POLY - working on

View of world at end of QSC


------------------------------------------------------------------------

END OF AA STATS 450BC
19 cities
209 tiles claimed
Pop 70 in city size
Military - 35 units consisting of 6 workers, 3 warriors, 2 spears, 1 sword, 21 horses & 2 Javelins - plus 4 slave workers

View of newly captured cities

 

[Mistfit]

@ Gator: Just for curiosity sake were the 3 slaves at 1000BC and 1 extra one at 450BC from Javilins or from other fighting?

Edit: Never mind I read the repost again and answered my own question.

Good looking start Gator!

 

[Dianthus]

QSC (4000BC to 1000BC)
I started by moving the Settler NE and proceeded to set up the 4 turn Settler factory ASAP. My build order was Warrior, Warrior, Granary, Worker, Settler. From then on I was producing 4 turn settlers, with the odd worker thrown in when I thought it was needed. I managed to grab the Horses/Iron/Silks, so was finding it easy to stay happy and was able to build up my Horse-based military. I'm intending to go for Conquest/Domination (preferably Conquest), so Horses were important. I researched The Wheel first so I could find them ensure and they were in my territory. I still successfully complete a Philosophy->The Republic slingshot in 1325BC. The following are my QSC QSC Stats:

11 towns
37 population
13 Workers
2 Slaves
4 Warriors
3 Javelin Throwers
8 Chariots
7 Contacts
Masonry
Pottery
The Wheel
Bronze Working
Alphabet
Warrior Code
Ceremonial Burial
Writing
Code of Laws
Philosophy
The Republic
Iron Working
Mysticism
Literature
Mathematics

QSC Score : 7764

Here's a minimap at 1000BC:




Remainder of Ancient Age (1000BC-350BC)
It took me quite a while longer to complete the Ancient Age, considering I only had 5 more techs to research. That's because I only researched Polytheism and Currency, letting the AIs research the rest. Instead I built a bunch of Chariots and saved some gold to upgrade them. In 630BC I had 7 Horsemen, 4 Chariots, 3 Warriors and 3 Javelin Throwers. I was weak compared to the Aztecs, and they declared war. I was going to ally America/Iroquois/Spain against them, but they didn't have contact with the Aztecs yet! I didn't press them all that much. I was happy to have a drawn out war in which I avoided losing units and spending time in their territory, so enjoying the war happiness and not accumulating war weariness. I triggered my golden age and started building more military, reaching 33 Horses in 350BC, with 2209g ready for upgrading them to Knights.

Here's a minimap at 350BC.:


Here's a log of my tech pace:

4000BC Masonry (Starting Tech)
4000BC Pottery (Starting Tech)
2390BC The Wheel (Researched)
2390BC Bronze Working (Traded)
2390BC Alphabet (Traded)
2390BC Warrior Code (Traded)
2390BC Ceremonial Burial (Traded)
1725BC Writing (Researched)
1450BC Code of Laws (Researched)
1325BC Philosophy (Reseached)
1325BC The Republic (Free with Philosophy)
1325BC Iron Working (Traded)
1325BC Mysticism (Traded)
1050BC Literature (Researched)
1025BC Mathematics (Traded)
925BC Polytheism (Researched)
825BC Map Making (Traded)
800BC Horseback Riding (Traded)
690BC Currency (Researched)
350BC Construction (Traded)

Graphs!!
Here's one of my slaves/settlers:


And one of my military:

 

[Firecrack]

Nice units graphs Dianthus, I like them. Did you make them with something like excel or do you use a special software that monitor your savegames and generate the graphs ?

 

[Dianthus]

Nice units graphs Dianthus, I like them. Did you make them with something like excel or do you use a special software that monitor your savegames and generate the graphs ?

Yes and Yes .

I use my CRpMapStat program (see the link in my sig) to copy the autosaves as I play, then my CRpStats program to extract the data from the autosaves, then Excel to make the graphs from the tabulated data.

 

[Firecrack]

Yes and Yes .

I use my CRpMapStat program (see the link in my sig) to copy the autosaves as I play, then my CRpStats program to extract the data from the autosaves, then Excel to make the graphs from the tabulated data.

I am already using CRPMapStat (which is very useful BTW ) but i though that the other CRP tools worked only with .crp files. I will try CRPStats now that I know it can handle autosaves.

It is still unclear for me where the .crp files comes from and what they contain. I saw on your web site crp file for GOTM. Do they contain the game sequence for every player who summitted ? If so, can we use CRPViewer to view the moves of the "star players" ?

 

[Dianthus]

I am already using CRPMapStat (which is very useful BTW ) but i though that the other CRP tools worked only with .crp files. I will try CRPStats now that I know it can handle autosaves.

It is still unclear for me where the .crp files comes from and what they contain. I saw on your web site crp file for GOTM. Do they contain the game sequence for every player who summitted ? If so, can we use CRPViewer to view the moves of the "star players" ?

We're getting a bit off topic here really, but I'll answer anyway. If you've got any other questions that are more about CRpSuite than CGOTM04 then maybe you could pop along to my >> CRpSuite thread<<?

CRpViewer can open either a single .sav file to view one player's replay (very similar to the replay you get from within Civ when you complete the game), or can open a .crp file containing the replay information from multiple games. If you open a .crp file you can choose two players and step through to compare them side by side. I've got 2 .crp files on my site for each GOTM game, one containing the games from the top 25, one containing all games. If you've submitted then your game will be in one of those files (or both if you've made it to the top 25 ).

 

[Hannabir]

Pooh! I finally qualify to access this thread.

It took me quite a while to figure out the fastest way to set up my settler factory. After building the granary in 3000 BC, the first settler was produced in 2750 BC and from then on a 3½-4-4½-5 factory was in play. Later, after connecting the two luxuries, I added a slave to improve my income, and another was added so I had one settler finished in 3 turns right before we revolted.

This was how I managed:

Step 1: a second Worker asap
4000bc Settler ne, Worker nw on bonus grassland
3950bc Chichén Itza on the river, with wheat and all the hills in range (the only square to consider, really), Worker starts mining
3750bc Warrior produced, Worker is roading
3650bc Worker moves se to irrigate a grassland tile
3600bc Worker2 produced, moves to road the wheat

Step 2: irrigating the wheat
3450bc Chichén Itza expands, but does not yet need the wheat;
Worker1 has finished irrigating and moves se to cut one forest, there is no time for a road; Worker2 can now irrigate the wheat
3350bc as Worker2 is about to finish irrigating, Chichén Itza begins working the wheat so it will grow to size 2 at end of turn

Step 3: the granary
3300bc Worker2 moves n to road and then mine a second bonus grassland
3250bc Worker1 again skips roading and goes se to cut the second forest
3100bc Chichén Itza is now size 3
3000bc the Granary is completed

At this point the capital looks like this:

3000bc

In quick succession the Maya now founded 10 new cities, almost all of them on the rivers.

Meanwhile, we were making fast progress techwise, although we started with no research at all until Alphabet became available for trade.

Techs during despotism
4000bc Masonry, Pottery (starting techs)
3650bc Warrior Code (Aztecs), met them early
3050bc Ceremonial Burial (America), Bronze Working (Aztecs)
2800bc Alphabet (Spain), finally!
1950bc Writing (Maya), Mysticism (America), Iron Working (Spain)
1600bc Code of Laws (Maya), The Wheel (America)
1475bc Philosophy (Maya), The Republic (Maya)

We revolt and get a lucky draw: only 3 turns of anarchy!
Our Javelin Throwers barely reach the border with America in time.

War with America
1400bc The Maya are a Republic. Now, the Americans had very few defenders and a fair number of small cities. One of our Javelin Throwers kills an unfortified Spearman (must have rushed in from Washington) and triggers our Golden Age, while capturing Boston.
1325bc Washington is taken without any problem. There are too few American defenders to give our Javelin Throwers even a single slave!
1300bc But we have few attackers left, too, and when they offer 3 cities for peace we accept. No elite was produced in this short war, let alone a leader.

Meanwhile, we use the Golden Age to build wonders and libraries. Workers join our capital after mining the hills and at size 12, it makes an awesome 38 shields per turn. Also due to the GA, research is pretty fast, too.

Ancient techs and wonders in Republic
1325bc Literature (Maya), The Colossus (Palenque)
1225bc Polytheism (Maya), Map Making (Spain), Mausoleum of Mausollos (Chichén Itza)
1100bc Monarchy (Maya)
1050bc Mathematics (Spain), Construction (hut), Horseback Riding (Aztecs)
1000bc Forbidden Palace (Palenque)
950bc Currency (Maya), Pyramids (Chichén Itza)

In 1050bc we had units standing ready at the remaining huts for this exact (and final) opportunity, and were rewarded.

QSC stats
firaxis score 389
20 cities
62 citizens
218 tiles
2 turns away from all ancient techs
3 luxuries (spices, silks, gems)
Colossus, Mausoleum of Mausollus, Forbidden Palace (Pyramids in 2)
1 granary, 1 temple, 4 libraries
1 settler, 19 workers, 4 warriors, 1 chariot, 2 galleys, 2 javelin throwers, 1 curragh, 2 slaves

1000bc

 

[RFHolloway]

The messanger could barely keep his excitement in check. "It will work your excelency" he said hopping from one foot to the other. "we know The aztecs were trying to build the pyramids, and we know that the french have just completed it this turn. They will change their plans soon, now is the time to act!"

"Are you sure that they understand the deal"

" I am sure we got the main point across, they got very excited and started running about looking for things to sacrifice"

" so the deals is..."

"We give them mysticism and Polytheism, they change the pile of stone that was going to be a Pyramid into a Temple to Artimis, and once it is completed they give us the capital"

"Give us? and what if they don't?"

"Well we have 5 veteran swords and 3 veteran Javelin throwers on the mountains overlooking thier capital"

"That should be sufficient, then what?"

"we sack all the scientists - we don't need no education, well we might need to trade for literacy so that we can build libraries to put all our stories in."

"And if we don't impress them with our stories?"

" well there is always the option of Cavalry"

And so it came to pass. The plan was executed flawlessly despite the Aztec chief claiming that print written that small was obviously an attempt to trick him. He did see the point after one of our javelin throwing lawyers explained it to him.