Constitutional Amendment

[Curufinwe]

I'm not sure of the exact protocol to follow, if there is any, so, per the advice of Chieftess and her colleagues, as well as the Judiciary and my peers in the Demogame. Using the proposal of Strider, I now put forward for both of us this amendment to the Constitution. The text I put forward are the revised parts

Article C
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. All members, save those of the House of the People shall be elected in free, fair and regular elections. The Members of the House of the People themselves shall be the citizenry, which will be open to all people, without limit or discrimination.


Article D.
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People. It is headed by the President who shall be the primary Designated Player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread. The President shall be tasked with control of worker actions. The President is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

1. The Minister for Domestic Affairs is delegated by the people with the power of distributing funds between Science, Entertainment, and Taxes, and in charge of resources in so far as they relate to Domestic Affairs. The Minister for Science shall hold concurrent power over funding in that it is pertaining to science, and should disagreement occur the Minister for Domestic Affairs will prevail. The Minister is also in charge of all Domestic initiatives and holds concurrent power with the Minister for Culture on the placement of Wonders. The Minister is responsible for the placement of cities. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

2. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is delegated by the people with the power to sign treaties with Foreign Nations and monitor those nations actions and moods towards ourself and our allies. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is responsible for Espionage. The Minister may, within the limits set by the people, intervene so as to manipulate the attitude of another nation. Other Ministries shall have concurrent power over treaties and espionage, within the competency of that specific Ministry. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

3. The Minister for Defense is delegated by the people with the power to handle all military strategy and troop activites. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend the build queue of a city or cities so long as they can prove that the city is in military danger, and the people grant their consent. The Minister for Defense advises the Ministries of Domestic Affairs and Culture on wonders relating to the Ministry of Defense. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

4. The Minister for Trade is delegated by the people with the power to monitor and initiate all trade, domestic and foreign. Other Ministries have concurrent power over trade, in so far as it corresponds to their Ministry, and if disagreement should occur the Minister for Trade shall prevail. The Minister has concurrent power of resources with the Minister for Domestic Affairs, in so far as that power corresponds to Trade. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

5. The Minister for Science is delegated by the people with the power to monitor all scientific activity, by ourselves and foreign nations, the acquisition of technology by any method, and the concurrent power over trading techs with the Minister for Trade. The Minister is as well in charge for the building and placement of Spaceship Parts. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend the build queue of a city or cities so as to place a Spaceship Part, and the people grant their consent. The Minister may advise the Ministries of Domestic Affairs and Culture on Wonders that pertain to the Ministry of Science. The Minister may initiate espionage relating to the acquisition of a technology, with the consent of the people. The Minister holds concurrent power over funding towards Science, and should disagreement occur the Minister for Domestic Affairs shall prevail. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

6. The Minister for Culture is delegated by the people with the power to monitor all cultural activity, our own as well as that of foreign nations, and keeps the peace. The Minister holds concurrent power over the placement and building of Wonders with the Minister for Domestic affairs, with neither Minister prevailing. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend a build queue in a city or cities towards a cultural improvement or Wonder, if the Minister feels that the Ministry's interests can be advanced in doing so, and then only with the consent of the people. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.


Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch will be formed of one House of the People and an Advisory Council.
1.The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution.
a.The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
2.The Advisory Council will be formed of the Provincial Governors. They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces, and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces.
a The Governors are responsible for all aspects of management specifically relating to a city, namely food, shields and commerce. The Governor may initiate a poll to raise or lower the funding towards Luxuries, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors may initiate a poll requesting that the people rush an improvement or unit in a city or cities, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors may advise the Ministers for Culture and Domestic Affairs on the placement of Wonders, in so far as it affects their Province. The Governors may force the Minister for Defense to supply defensive units for the defense of a city, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors are subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

 

[blackheart]

Could you post a compare and contrast of this amendment and our current laws?

 

[Curufinwe]

I will, tomorrow I believe.

 

[Cyc]

Making deletions in italics and additions in bold would surely help us figure out where the changes are.

 

[ravensfire]

I will again restate my objection to this proposal. Having seen the wording, I can now comment specifically.

* The proposal is wordy and redundant. Editing could significantly improve the readability of this proposal. One specific item to mention is the continual "...subject to the will of the people and may not violate it" This is redundant, the clause is already part of the Constitution.

* Sections often cross each other - duties for each office are not located in one section, but spread throughout. This makes the proposal difficult to understand without significant study. Our laws should be clear and straightforward.

* There are few clear deliniations of power, with many more blurred lines of responsiblity than we currently have.

* The concept of overriding queues is an insult to Governors and works against the concepts of cooperation. This proposal greatly skews power towards the Executive branch. Governors, and local decisions, are weakened significantly.

* There are some good parts here - specifically areas are covered that are not in the current Constitution - espionage and spaceships - that ought to be considered for adoption to our Constitution by themselves.

* No mention of conscription - given the detailed and restrictive delination of responsibilities, this would be an issue and should be corrected.

Again, I urge all citizens to oppose this proposal.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Curufinwe]

Cyc- I rewrote the entire thing, so, apart from the first sentence of Article C, it will be effectively mass deletion and mass change.

 

[Curufinwe]

Correction- almost all is a rewrite. I'll be following Cyc's instructions, as such.

 

[DaveShack]

I fail to see any need to rewrite these articles, so my knee-jerk reaction is to dismiss the entire thing. I won't do that because it would be wrong to ignore others positions where there may be something useful which could come of the change, so instead I'll start asking questions.

What is the motivation for this proposed change?

Why is it necessary to repeat "The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it." in so many places, when we have a separate article which says the same thing already?

Why so many mentions of "concurrent power" and similar phrases?

It is clear what changes in the text (nearly everything), but please explain what changes operationally? How would day to day operations of the government be different with this structure compared to the current structure?

Do you really want that many more polls? There was already a discussion where the citizens were leaning pretty far towards ministers getting citizen input on strategies but making more decisions based on the strategy instead of leadership by poll.

 

[Strider]

There are several reasons to rewrite this article, I'll list all of the ones off the top of my head:

1. The current amendment is VERY badly worded
2. The current amendment leaves out several jobs
3. The current amendment leaves several undefined points
4. The current amendment could cause severe jurisdiction issues
5. The current amendment fails to organize duties

It is not necessary, but would help to solve some possible PI problems.

The day-to-day operations of the government would not change dramitically, the government would continue to operate almost the same as it normally does.

The mentions of "concurrent" power is an attempt at a checks and balance system. Under the current amendment a leader deals with a certain number of things, and that's it. Under the above proposal several leaders duties may interfere with eachother, this allows the damage made from a imcompetent leader to lessen. No, we don't want that many more polls, but what this would do is cause leaders to work together more often (IE: Science/Trade working together for tech trades etc.), it is more democratic overall for two elected ministers to decide on something than just one.

This above proposal also gives more power to Science, Culture, and the govonors. The three less powerful poistions in the game, while most poistions power actually stays pretty much the same (the only two that really loses that much power is Domestic and Trade).

 

[blackheart]

Governors don't need much more power, they're the only position that's pretty much unchecked ingame.

 

[Strider]

Governors don't need much more power, they're the only position that's pretty much unchecked ingame.

If you notice, the govonor is now checked by several leaders in the above propsoal (to a certain extent of course).

 

[blackheart]

If you notice, the govonor is now checked by several leaders in the above propsoal (to a certain extent of course).

Ahhh, I read it before the parts were bolded. Long text makes for difficult differentiation.

I am confused by the powers set for the FA ministry, who would prevail if there was a dispute on espionage or treaties, the FA or the other ministry? Also, since there is a lot of concurrent powers, wouldn't it make sense for the FA to share the power of tech espionage with Science, giving Science the prevailing ability?

By consent do you mean a 51% majority, plurality, or what?

 

[Strider]

Ahhh, I read it before the parts were bolded. Long text makes for difficult differentiation.

I am confused by the powers set for the FA ministry, who would prevail if there was a dispute on espionage or treaties, the FA or the other ministry? Also, since there is a lot of concurrent powers, wouldn't it make sense for the FA to share the power of tech espionage with Science, giving Science the prevailing ability?

By consent do you mean a 51% majority, plurality, or what?

Espionage is split between three departments, Foreign Affairs, Military, and Science. Science can only steal techs, Military can only steal Troop plans, and everything else falls under Foreign Affairs.

 

[Strider]

Here is the proposed poll for this amendment(this is what, I believe it meant), inorder for the amendment to continue it must be get a second and third.

Proposed Changes:

Article C
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. All members, save those of the House of the People shall be elected in free, fair and regular elections. The Members of the House of the People themselves shall be the citizenry, which will be open to all people, without limit or discrimination.


Article D.
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People. It is headed by the President who shall be the primary Designated Player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread. The President shall be tasked with control of worker actions. The President is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

1. The Minister for Domestic Affairs is delegated by the people with the power of distributing funds between Science, Entertainment, and Taxes, and in charge of resources in so far as they relate to Domestic Affairs. The Minister for Science shall hold concurrent power over funding in that it is pertaining to science, and should disagreement occur the Minister for Domestic Affairs will prevail. The Minister is also in charge of all Domestic initiatives and holds concurrent power with the Minister for Culture on the placement of Wonders. The Minister is responsible for the placement of cities. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

2. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is delegated by the people with the power to sign treaties with Foreign Nations and monitor those nations actions and moods towards ourself and our allies. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is responsible for Espionage. The Minister may, within the limits set by the people, intervene so as to manipulate the attitude of another nation. Other Ministries shall have concurrent power over treaties and espionage, within the competency of that specific Ministry. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

3. The Minister for Defense is delegated by the people with the power to handle all military strategy and troop activites. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend the build queue of a city or cities so long as they can prove that the city is in military danger, and the people grant their consent. The Minister for Defense advises the Ministries of Domestic Affairs and Culture on wonders relating to the Ministry of Defense. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

4. The Minister for Trade is delegated by the people with the power to monitor and initiate all trade, domestic and foreign. Other Ministries have concurrent power over trade, in so far as it corresponds to their Ministry, and if disagreement should occur the Minister for Trade shall prevail. The Minister has concurrent power of resources with the Minister for Domestic Affairs, in so far as that power corresponds to Trade. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

5. The Minister for Science is delegated by the people with the power to monitor all scientific activity, by ourselves and foreign nations, the acquisition of technology by any method, and the concurrent power over trading techs with the Minister for Trade. The Minister is as well in charge for the building and placement of Spaceship Parts. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend the build queue of a city or cities so as to place a Spaceship Part, and the people grant their consent. The Minister may advise the Ministries of Domestic Affairs and Culture on Wonders that pertain to the Ministry of Science. The Minister may initiate espionage relating to the acquisition of a technology, with the consent of the people. The Minister holds concurrent power over funding towards Science, and should disagreement occur the Minister for Domestic Affairs shall prevail. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

6. The Minister for Culture is delegated by the people with the power to monitor all cultural activity, our own as well as that of foreign nations, and keeps the peace. The Minister holds concurrent power over the placement and building of Wonders with the Minister for Domestic affairs, with neither Minister prevailing. The Minister may initiate a poll requesting that the people amend a build queue in a city or cities towards a cultural improvement or Wonder, if the Minister feels that the Ministry's interests can be advanced in doing so, and then only with the consent of the people. The Minister is subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.


Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch will be formed of one House of the People and an Advisory Council.
1.The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution.
a.The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
2.The Advisory Council will be formed of the Provincial Governors. They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces, and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces.
a The Governors are responsible for all aspects of management specifically relating to a city, namely food, shields and commerce. The Governor may initiate a poll to raise or lower the funding towards Luxuries, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors may initiate a poll requesting that the people rush an improvement or unit in a city or cities, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors may advise the Ministers for Culture and Domestic Affairs on the placement of Wonders, in so far as it affects their Province. The Governors may force the Minister for Defense to supply defensive units for the defense of a city, which may pass only with the people's consent. The Governors are subject to the will of the people, and may not violate it.

Current System:

Article D.
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People. It is headed by the President who shall be the primary Designated Player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread. The President shall be tasked with control of worker actions.
1. The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
2. The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, as prescribed by law.
3. The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military strategy and troop activities, as prescribed by law.
4. The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources, as perscibed by law.
5. The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech acquisition, as prescribed by law.
6. The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the keeping of the peace and the construction of wonders.

Article E.
Legislative Branch The Legislative Branch will be formed of one House of the People and an Advisory Council.
1.The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution. a.The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
2.The Advisory Council will be formed of the Provincial Governors. They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces, and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces. a.Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. b.Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

 

[Curufinwe]

As for repition of certain phrases, it is to emphasize things, if it is overkill, so be it but if you're not hard on things in a constitution you risk abuse. We are all well aware of this, or at least should be.

 

[Cyc]

Strider, if you wish to create a Proposed Poll to present to the public for inspection and then submit to the Judiciary, you must format your post just as you would the poll for ratification. You can look at the prior proposed polls (thus far in this game) for hints on how to present a proposed poll. Any seconding prior to your re-formatting would be senseless, as the Judiciary would not recognize your above post as a poll. It is merely legislation. Sorry.

CJ Cyc

 

[Strider]

Strider, if you wish to create a Proposed Poll to present to the public for inspection and then submit to the Judiciary, you must format your post just as you would the poll for ratification. You can look at the prior proposed polls (thus far in this game) for hints on how to present a proposed poll. Any seconding prior to your re-formatting would be senseless, as the Judiciary would not recognize your above post as a poll. It is merely legislation. Sorry.

CJ Cyc

Let me see if I have this right, I have to post a poll for each "section" (Ratification Poll for Article D.1, D.2, etc.)?

If so, that is a hell of alot of polls.

 

[Cyc]

Let me see if I have this right, I have to post a poll for each "section" (Ratification Poll for Article D.1, D.2, etc.)?

If so, that is a hell of alot of polls.

I wouldn't do that. Too much work. If I was in your shoes, I would create a "Proposed Poll" for Article D and a "Proposed Poll" for Article E. Then let them set for at least 24 hours to see what the people say about them.

You should separate anything out per Article. Don't mix anything together. You can put the new additions in bold or just put the old legislation below, it's up to you. You don't really have to do either.

 

[Strider]

I wouldn't do that. Too much work. If I was in your shoes, I would create a "Proposed Poll" for Article D and a "Proposed Poll" for Article E. Then let them set for at least 24 hours to see what the people say about them.

Also, I hope you know it says inside of the const. that the proposed poll must exist in the discussion thread for 24 hrs.

We really need to make an amendment that re-words the amendment process.

 

[Cyc]

Also, I hope you know it says inside of the const. that the proposed poll must exist in the discussion thread for 24 hrs.

We really need to make an amendment that re-words the amendment process.

I know exactly what the Constitution says, my friend. I don't think you understand the concept of a proposed poll. You might want to read the Judicial thread and peruse several of the amendment threads (completely) we have here in this forum.