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Cookbook #1 (Sally, Immortal)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fippy, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Chieftain

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    @Fippy
    Thanks for the advice. Rifling is looking much more attractive than cuirs to me now. Can also do drafting and let Pro trait shine a bit more.

    70 turns? hmm I wonder if somebody can win in that timeframe.........:king:
     
  2. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    “Omae wa mo shindeiru”

    Yep! I already have :king:. Since I won fish save t215 our gracious lady @Fippy has given me permission to post the results here. I’ll do so ASAP once I finish up some work!
     
  3. floydmcw

    floydmcw Chieftain

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    Interesting, I thought it was a flat rate.

    Though I think 1500 might be the Epic cost? I couldn't bulb all of Machinery and that doesn't cost 1500 bulbs.

    Currency is great for humans but does it really help an Immortal AI that much? He'll get another trade route, but Mao would be his only trade partner. I don't think AIs build wealth very often.

    I traded Shaka the cheapest tech he would take. Maybe MC would benefit him less. I didn't have construction but if I did I wouldn't be eager to give him that and face his catapults 10 turns later.

    Yeah, I was trying to time things right (meet the AIs then switch into Conf for safety) and the timing didn't quite work. I thought there was a special penalty for annoying the AIs when you first meet them?

    I wish I had known about that $10 trick, I gifted most of the overseas AIs (cheap) techs!

    Hmm, when I hover over Shaka it's just +1.


    The capital doesn't have that many cottages to work. It was running several specialists. I figured better to get an imperfect T155 National Epic than a perfect T205 National Epic.

    (And eventually I might move the capital to say Ulundi.)
     
  4. floydmcw

    floydmcw Chieftain

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    It's unfair if you don't go into detail! The whole point is for me to learn! ;)
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @floydmcw

    Bulb:
    Was the machinery bulb with an engineer? Their bulbing value is abit less. Thats the chief reason why bulb with other GPersons are less desirable (Oh, and that most of the bulb-paths are working out less efficient for us.)

    Currency:
    I really don't know, I have been of the view that the extra trade route does wonders for the AIs. They seem to be so horrible at managing their economy, and they sprawl cities everywhere (especially shaka) that I thought that the extra traderoute from currency really really helped them.
    My belief in this have been so strong, that I would prefer the 10 catapults. on the lines of "Better 10 catapults now, than 10 trebs sooner than they have to.".

    Shaka diplo:
    I think all civs get only +1 from religion/shared war/shared civic from the start (there might be exceptions). You get the full benefit over time.

    NatEpic:
    I figured better to get an imperfect T155 National Epic than a perfect T205 National Epic.
    I really like these lines of reasoning!

    Fippy:
    "some parts could be described as builder mentality"
    What I see as builder mentality is a tendancy that I share and have to keep in check at all times, to overvalue future gains.
    It drives you to build buildings that are quite good in theory, but in practice doesn't work out.
    Courthouses are a good example. They are very nice to have in place, and especially so in the late game. But building them premature in anticipation of their comming use, is divering valuable hammers right now that could be put into say... Camels? :)
    I struggle with this tendancy in a different manner when playing iso maps. Even though I should, I have a hard time placing cities in a manner that damages my home continents future capacity for putting down filler cities.
     
  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I bet that is latin for "Fish always prevails!" :)
    Nice to have a target date to compete with!
     
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  7. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    I misremembered, I won t210. Better move a bit faster guys :).

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11202).png Screenshot (11203).png
    Screenshot (11204).png
    Turn 110. Pulling in a solid beaker rate, though behind @sampsa and one other player I think. Decided to go full cuir mode, since I didn't trust the other AIs on the other continent to tech anywhere near fast enough to give me what I want, considering how their tech rate was so abysmal I managed to stay well at #1 in terms of GNP (even Qin at #2-ish was behind on quite a few techs) and founded both confu and tao (I think I bulbed philo this turn). As you can see, fish-gem city was a bold move but already pulling its own weight.


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11205).png Turn 161. Libbed MT a while ago, used up my GA for a GA, and now have about 16 cuirs ready with a couple more on the way. Basra, Kufah, and Najran were the MVPs of whipping, getting a new cuir out literally every 3-4 turns. This is crucial: after DOWing I bribe Qin onto Shaka (for a fraction of the price because once you declare the AI gives you a massive 75% discount). Shaka slammed his army into some walled hilltop city of Qin's and got nowhere; meanwhile all the rest of his cities were sitting ducks. I declare a turn later, I think, and then wait for Shaka to move his stack outta Babango before striking at that and then using Qin's territory to push straight for Ulundi. Didn't quite capture Babango since delegated too few cuirs for the task (also bad rolls) but managed to snipe his capital, some of his core, and virtually all his coastal cities...


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11207).png
    ...Which was enough to cap Shaka less than 10 turns into the war.


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11208).png Qin went a couple turns later, though he put up an arguably better fight because pro + chicken pizza. In the end, though, my baiting strats got him (plus his army was spent fighting Shaka). Also managed to limp my way to astro with city capture gold in the meantime. After astro, teching becomes irrelevant (though I did try to reach communism/rifling for funsies and even more stomping with cavs).


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11209).png Needing galleons was annoying. The Celts, true to their nature, resisted capping until I had smashed their army, their backup army, and their backup backup army. But since I had learned the mystical power of galleon chaining (taught to me by a certain breed of aquatic creature, probably...) I could muster 3 new cuir reinforcements every 2-3 turns. Against that production rate an imm AI with <10 cities who didn't know how to whip stood no chance.

    I'd also like to talk about my promo strats for a bit. When the numbers are not in my favor, like earlier, I almost always take shock. Unless AI is pro maces/pikes are definitely going to be biggest threat to your cuirs and the hardest to grind through in cities, until muskets arrive. To ensure least casualties and greatest odds when you have <20, C1->shock->C2, etc. seems best. But once you reach critical mass or get enough vets start considering promoting C1->C2->C3->march (as is in the pic), and then sacking a few low-level cuirs into cities before cleaning up with the promoted ones you want to keep. Maybe a bit more will die that way but if, as I stated, numbers are not a problem, you'll end up with a much more highly-promoted core that can strike, move, and heal, increasing conquest speed - and besides, C3 actually > shock in my experience since it'll shred melee and longbows alike, because of the way combat modifiers work, and since pesky phants and muskets are still very significant dangers. Speaking of muskets...


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11210).png
    ...Rome was the only civ to field them. But alas, 2-3 9-strength weaklings (without even CG promos, IIRC) were not nearly enough to stand up to the now 30+ strong cuir horde. Also didn't help that he and Monty were bashing each other in for the past 10-20 turns. He capped at the turn I wanted to win. That was a major dissapointment :(, not being fast enough. Maybe if I also attacked Izzy/Monty from the other direction (they were both weaklings) I would've been fast enough. But I didn't wanna micro more and also didn't want bad RNG wiping a mini-stack or two. Ah, I guess I can't complain; plenty of things still went my way - I think this game was won the moment I capped Qin.


    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (11211).png
    ...And there you have it. Turn 210 domination victory. Capped Izzy a turn late for conquest. But again, I guess I can't complain - so many things went well this game starting from avoiding any sort of barb archers and dodging plotting from Shaka until Confu (at which point safety beg saved my butt), and ending at virtually every AI having fought a war against another at some point, leading to intense blood feuds and far slower tech pace. If there's two things I learned from imm, it's 1. Almost never go astro bulb, because the AIs mostly suck at teching and will take forever to reach anything useful (had to tech feudalism myself to cap Shaka), and 2. The fastest way to win imm is by sheer mass of cuirs - almost every time.

    Kinda fitting that I have cuir 1 and cuir 50 on the same tile. From one of the first to the last units whipped...shows how far the tiny Arabian empire has come, and how far I've come as a player from just under 2 years ago, when I was farming 15 grasslands and wondering why I wasn't automatically winning (I'm sure @Imp. Knoedel remembers ;)).


    Regarding the final verdict on fish:
    Spoiler :

    I think if going mids, fish would've been a serious mistake. This is because pigs site is stronger (unimproved FPs are not to be underestimated) than either fishing resource, and you want stone city as your 3rd city at latest for safe mids. But you also want gems city before t80-90 most likely, because imm AI expand surprisingly fast (not that they can economically handle their expansion most of the time...). So with mids...fish last, stone 3rd. Even the necessity of gems is debatable since you got plenty of beakers and :) from rep. One last thing - with mids you can maybe skip forges. The main benefit of ANY 25% bonus on production is 2-pop instead of 3-pop cuir whips. And if you can get about the same effectiveness without throwing 120 hammers into the wind, then all the better. Happiness problems solve themselves once calendar comes in (and if you got the gems like you should), especially on this continent.

    But if not going mids, then it's not a bad choice at all (though maybe not the best, possibly :eek:). I still stand by my conviction that developing the plains cottages was crucial and it took a surprisingly short time for me to get the border pop. Besides, you start with myst - decreasing the sacrifice needed greatly for monuments. While not really that good of a whip site early on, that city was good for generating a GS (I think...gotta check on that), had decent production, and gave decent commerce. So, OK site that contributed a very significant amount. Finally - settling by food resources without the appropriate tech for 10 turns still feels like a waste to me, regardless. Maybe the math doesn't check out but y'all know by now I play by gut. HOWEVER: the opportunity cost still can't be denied; if I played this again, I would've considered AH before fishing and settling pigs first. If I could settle AND improve the pig fast...now there's a whip factory if I ever saw one. Now the gems city was an MVP. It gave 30-40 beakers/turn not long after it was founded and could whip constantly for the war effort once that started.


    A lot of fun overall, thanks @Fippy and participants!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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  9. Samuel_996

    Samuel_996 Chieftain

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    Hey, sorry, hadn't expected to move on so fast, but I guess it's a quiet round and there's usually a lot more debate to be had in the early game than once we start diverging hard. My save was
    Spoiler :
    classic Lib->MT with cuir whipping set to begin almost immediately after I resumed. Personally I'm planning to take it towards a space finish rather than aim for the quickest dom possible. Not sure if that's really the point of the exercise but might be nice to see a little variation in the win conditions.


    So @krikav I'll be playing from my own save, might pick up some others once I finish just for fun. :D
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Ok! Well I'll go with my own save too then, just to make sure someone goes forward with camels. :)
    Point of this? Well, to play games and learn from each other!
     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @floydmcw
    I am having a look at your save now before playing on.
    Since you asked for feedback I'm going to be abit harsh, just the way I want people to be when they spot my errors! :)
    I didn't look at everything, just tried to find the most apparent mistakes I could find first.

    Spoiler :

    Here is a obvious mistake:

    Spoiler :

    You are building a temple here, where there is absolutely no urgent need for the happines. Even though the temples come at half price, there are more pressing needs.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Spoiler :


    You are building universities in a lot of cities. Universities are a extremly expensive building and many of the cities you are building them in have really no use for them.
    The only reason you would want to do this, is to be able to build oxford, a national wonder that is very expensive (better with stone though).
    But for oxford to have any kind of point, the capital needs to be really supercharged with cottages.
    Compare our two capitals, yours:
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    And mine:
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    So, I question the approach to build univs+oxford here. But even if thats your goal, you should have worked harder earlier in the game by maturing cottages for the capital.




    I saw a city with 6 hammers/turn that was almost finished with a courthouse.
    The city had 6gpt upkeep cost.
    If you slow-built that courthouse, you started 20 turns ago, and the gold savings it will provide is 3gpt, so compared to building wealth it will break even in 40 turns.
    So before you get a benefit from the first hammer you put into the courthouse, you have to wait 60 turns.
    This is way too long! Have to pick lower hanging fruits first! :)

     
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  12. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    @krikav is totally correct, what separates good from great play is the ability to not do useless things and do useful things in their stead. At any given point if you're trying to get the quickest win date, you have to, ironically, slow down and ask yourself: "is what I'm doing here going to help me in any way, and greater than what I could be doing instead." If no, do the other thing, or perhaps something better than even that.

    Like @sampsa I do not think too highly of the immortal AI. Cuirs + astro and you can be done with teching - none of the AIs on this map are gonna get anything beyond muskets. So...absolutely no reason to be building universities since they only pay off far beyond that and in fact you reach those 2 things much, much faster just building wealth. And a temple - what for? Your happy cap is 5-6 higher than the city pop, and it's located in a place far, far from any border pressure. You're throwing 40 hammers into the wind that can basically be used to fund an entire turn of research. Finally, improvement strats: it's 1000AD and you're missing a bunch of cottages that probably should have been there long time ago. Riverside brown tiles are plenty cottageable; they're just a lower priority than FP or green ones (but still something you should get started on sooner rather than later).
     
  13. floydmcw

    floydmcw Chieftain

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    krikav/undefeatable: Good point about the unis. Also while Oxford is nice to build with stone, I can't put it in Mecca till I move my capital. So it can wait till I've splatted Shaka.

    Anyway only 30 hammers were invested in unis (and in only one city) so no big deal.

    I think you guys missed the point of the temple. :smoke: It's not for happiness.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Was hoping to post a earlier save than T230, but here it is! :)
     

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  15. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yep that temple makes a good example why giving advice on other games takes time,
    you both missed it's for AP hammers, good return to get 2hpt for 40h ;)
     
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  16. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    Nice work with camels and cannons ;). Communism seems more useful than MS here? Ofc tech is basically a formality at this point. Also, nice idea with the colonies. I might've opted to go straight for communism after steel and keep the cities, which can then whip massive units with their pop right out the gate. But that's just my style.

    You killed poor Shaka...what did he ever do to you? Probably declare if given enough time, of course, but besides that...absolutely nothing :(.

    Also how the heck was Rome so fast? On my map, 20 turns ago, he was 7-8 techs behind (maybe more). No luck with AI warring, I assume? By ~1AD GGs were popping up left and right on my save.

    Pisces diu vivere (should make that my sig tbh).
     
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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'll wait with writeup/discussion untill the rest of the crowd finishes. :)
     
  18. Samuel_996

    Samuel_996 Chieftain

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    Offering my humble space game as an alternative to these more muscular saves... ;)
     

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  19. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Felt like giving you all :thumbsup:
    @Undefeatable i wonder if anybody will be faster, probably not ~~

    Really nice how this one will end, good activity considering the early game always interests more peoples,
    and i look forward to presenting book #3 in the near future.
     
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  20. floydmcw

    floydmcw Chieftain

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    I will play during the weekend.
     

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