Corruption, waste and me.

[FraterPerdurabo]

First of all, I'd like to say Hi. I've been playing Civilization with little ferocity ever since 2 came out and the recent discovery of these boards has been invaluable for me.

Now to my question, I always had problems with corruption and failed states, until I read through the article yesterday about getting WLTKD and minimizing waste through clever positioning of palaces. Now, I usually play on maps with large continents, so I gave it a try last game, et voila I managed to turn new continents into very decent states by positioning the Forbidden Palace and Secret Police HQ well. However, it essentially meant that I had to stay in Communism to retain the bonuses of the Police HQ. Once I got those cities running at a decent rate, is it safe to lose the HQ? Or do I have to reposition my Palace and Forbidden Palace?
I also build loads of Police Stations and Courthouses, as well as put emphasis on Marketplace and Temple trees, but more tips for dealing with corruption would be welcome.

Governments
This is also a very weak front. Most of the time I'm switching between Monarchy and Democracy. Could someone link me an article to read up on governments, since I could find one? Or some thumb-rules?

Thanks

 

[FraterPerdurabo]

I cannot find the edit buttons, so just adding that I'm playing on Regent, probably moving to Monarch with the next game.
edit: found the ediy button, funny but I could have sworn that it was not there earlier. Just wanted to add that I am playing Conquests 1.22

 

[Spoonwood]

Forbidden palace placement doesn't matter all too much in Conquests. The article you read that said that got written for Vanilla.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, FraterPerdurabo!

. . . . I also build loads of Police Stations and Courthouses, as well as put emphasis on Marketplace and Temple trees, but more tips for dealing with corruption would be welcome. . . .

Courts & Police Stations will rescue some cities, but there is a point at which those are no longer worth the investment. Eventually, you get to the point that every new town is 90% corrupt. At that point, start specialist farming. In highly corrupt areas, irrigate everything in sight and hire as many specialists as you can. Specialist output is neither enhanced by multiplier buildings, nor subject to corruption. See Bede's article The Role of the Specialist Citizen for more details.

Governments
This is also a very weak front. Most of the time I'm switching between Monarchy and Democracy. Could someone link me an article to read up on governments, since I could find one? Or some thumb-rules?

Thanks

Theov has put together a guide to governments here. I don't like to switch more than once in a game and, for my money, Republic is usually the government of choice (unless I'm playing All-War).

As for rules of thumb, I think here's the advice that you're likely to get around here:

• Republic is the best all-around government.
• Use Monarchy for All-War.
• Feudalism is good for games in which you whip a lot of culture & can be good for military games.
• Try to switch only once unless religious.

Now, I rarely play Feudalism and still haven't tried Communism (which continues to have a small, but dedicated base of supporters around here), but that's the standard advice that I've seen around here.

 

[vmxa]

Consider that all the shields/gold and time put into making those far away towns viable could have been used to make some troops to kill off your neighbors.

Consider that you researched a lot of optional techs that slowed your getting into the next age and some better tech, can you say Steam.

My issue with Commie is that I will have to research Nationalism and Communism. That comes at the point where I should be learning Steam and getting to RP and SciMeth for the ToE.

It will require me to build structures all over the place, that I otherwise do not build. Eventually my empire will get too large and corruption will start to increase in my best cities.

Democracy is worse as I have more techs to research that I should skip. Both will force me to revolt again. Demo has the added pain that will suffer if I am in a war. At this stage of most games wars are more common as land is harder to come by and that pushes the AI to fight.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

As always, the question is "what is it that you are trying to do?"

In conquests, you have 3 early choices for a new government: Republic, Monarchy or (a little later) Fuedalism. All 3 have plusses and minuses:

1) Republic: Great commerce bonus, lots of units will make costs go up. Road everywhere, get to size 7 asap everywhere.
2) Monarchy: No commerce bonus, 3 mp's, no weariness. best early government for serious warmongering (where you are going to be at constant war for a long time vs the same opponents and expect to lose a lot of units in your wars)
3) Feudalism: Generally used for 100K games - no commerce bonus + weariness gives it the downside of both monarchy and republic, but huge unit support costs and poprushing is an upside. I don't know ANYONE who uses it outside of 100K games, but I suspect it would make a pretty decent government for warmongering, as your unit costs pretty much vanish as you grow and you just end up with lots and lots of specialist farms.

later, you can get democracy, either by research or by trade.

This reduces your corruption by a little and gives you more effective workers and unit costs go down... but you get no free units. It's ok - more effective for AI's, who tend to build cities further apart and, particularly on higher level. I generally ignore it, as re-revolting will give you quite a bit of anarchy if you aren't religious and the bonuses just aren't that good.

Later later, you can get communism or fascism, again by research or trade. I've never gone to fascism, cause of the xenophobia - I've used communism before and it's very effective, but that was in a 100K, high level game, where I needed poprushing and no weariness.

 

[Higher Game]

Communism is weak. By the time you're so big enough that it pays off, you've already won. Even if you could make use of it, the anarchy problem could really hurt you unless you're religious. Democracy is fine if you're loaded in luxuries and too powerful and advanced for the AI to ever mess with; I rarely find it useful. But for late game governments, fascism is vastly superior to any other, becomes it comes at just about the same time as steam power, and it gives your workers steroids. Work sets you free. You'll have rails all over the place in no time. It's great for unit support and wars, too.

Republic is generally the best. The trick is, you go heavy technology early in the game (starting with alphabet is very important here), and research code of laws and then philosophy, and pick republic as your free tech if you're fast enough. Stick with that forever, unless you're religious and you're looking for a massive midgame war with fascism.

Feudalism is a tricky one. It's useful in a few special situations, but is far less flexible than republic. I prefer it to monarchy, since I like its unit support for mass artillery, which also helps keep war weariness down. I like to have one mega/wonder city at size 12, and lots of smaller support cities, so it often comes in handy. One big advantage of feudalism is that it's a required tech, and not off on a dead end branch.

The only time I would prefer monarchy is if I have horrible early luck with luxuries, which makes the military police useful, and the lack of war weariness helps in my quest to get some luxuries and then a decent government.

 

[Spoonwood]

Unlike higher_game most players around here seem to prefer Communism to Fascism (I prefer neither). Fascism causes your cities to lose population upon revolt and it has quite a bit of corruption. What type of victory do you want? Generally speaking, The Republic seems the best for *most* games for *most* players. But, if you fight wars in it, you'll have to manage war weariness.

 

[FraterPerdurabo]

Thanks a lot for everyone's responses.
I' just finished a game on Monarch and will be moving up to Emperor with the next one. Something that I've been gathering from the forums is to have a goal, which is probably my weakest part. I focus on building an army, building culture, improving research, etc all at the same time, and getting everything done in a half-assed way. Something that you could get away with on Regent but not any more as you keep raising the bar.

Especially, thanks a lot for the guide on the governments. I'm going to play my next game as religious and change governments frequently, just to experience them all in one game and see which one would suit my playstyle the most. However, I have to admit that I am currently in love with Communism. During my last game I managed to make my entire empire into an economic powerhouse. I had been planning to win by Domination, but I was so far behind with technologies that I realized that the Iraquois were going to win by space race before I'd be able to hurt them enough, so I switched all building priorities to library chain, marketplace chain and then Wealth when those were done. I could then raise my science bar to 90%, so I had 4-turn technology research and so much money that I could steal technologies from opponents (since Communism also boosts Espionage mission success) and even though I was a good 7-8 techs behind, I managed to win the space race. I think that the only reason for why I could do this was due to very low corruption in the cities that I had taken over (Forbidden Palace + Secret Police HQ). I even had enemies cities producing 80+ shields.

I have always played a Warmonger, so I'm getting a little bored of always resorting to arms. My next game I aim to win by diplomatic or perhaps space race, so I'm going to focus on staying at the top of the tech ladder and maintaining healthy relations with everyone. I guess that means getting Republic and switching to Democracy if I'm religious?

By the way, which civlization would you recommend for a rather peaceful, say Industrial Age GA civilization that focuses more on diplomacy? I have always played an early warmonger with very early GA (and now I'm beginning to understand the downsides). On top of that, I love mounted units, so I often go for Iraquois or someone that has a Knight UU (last game was with the Chinese). I normally fight wars that wipe the enemy out, so I want to change it this game, fight short wars while keeping international profile in high regard.

And once again, thanks for everyone's input. What I love about this game is that there are so many different ways of "making it work" that it's very fun to discuss and experience the different styles. The more in depth you get the more fun it becomes.

edit: also, another front that I really suck at is Wonders. I don't build any Wonders at all (I always used to focus on Sun Tzu's, Leonardo's and Smith's, however they come at the time when I normally struggle the most). For my next game, I want to set up a city for Wonders and get at least 1-2 per era. I understand that this means that I have to be ahead in technology and prebuild with Palace, but how do I choose the location for this city? Focused around an area with lots of shield? I guess open sea is must have for many Wonders. In short: how do you pick your Wonder city?

 

[DWetzel]

By the way, which civlization would you recommend for a rather peaceful, say Industrial Age GA civilization that focuses more on diplomacy? I have always played an early warmonger with very early GA (and now I'm beginning to understand the downsides). On top of that, I love mounted units, so I often go for Iraquois or someone that has a Knight UU (last game was with the Chinese).

Off the top of my head, the Ottomans would make a fine choice for you. Scientific and Industrious are nice traits if you're trying to build up. And the Sipahi (an 8/3/3 cavalry replacement) should trigger a golden age for you right when you want it. Just mind your wonders to not get an earlier golden age (this shouldn't be tooooo hard).

 

[Spoonwood]

If you want a latter GA and you want to play as religious, I suggest playing as the Celts, Egypt, or Babylon. Just don't fight a war with their unique units. You'll have to build either The Sistine Chapel or J. S. Bach's Cathedral (or an ancient age religious wonder), and then build Universal Suffrage, The Theory of Evolution, or Hoover's Dam depending on who you play. You want a high shield city with very lower corruption for a city to build wonder. Often the capital works well. If you want a diplomatic or spaceship game you can have more than one city build wonders... at least once in the middle ages, and often that's the better strategy as you can lock up more wonders that way. Saves would help us a lot to help you in any respect. We can't really tell much from writing, so please post a save (and/or a screenshot).

 

[Higher Game]

Unlike higher_game most players around here seem to prefer Communism to Fascism (I prefer neither). Fascism causes your cities to lose population upon revolt and it has quite a bit of corruption. What type of victory do you want? Generally speaking, The Republic seems the best for *most* games for *most* players. But, if you fight wars in it, you'll have to manage war weariness.

Lots of those players love milking the game, sitting just under the domination limit, and for that, communism works. For normal play, fascism is usually more valuable. If you're loaded with slaves (see: Maya), it can be amazing.

Thanks a lot for everyone's responses.
I' just finished a game on Monarch and will be moving up to Emperor with the next one. Something that I've been gathering from the forums is to have a goal, which is probably my weakest part. I focus on building an army, building culture, improving research, etc all at the same time, and getting everything done in a half-assed way. Something that you could get away with on Regent but not any more as you keep raising the bar.

When in doubt, go military. The jump to Emperor is big, and the jumps beyond it are massive.

I have always played a Warmonger, so I'm getting a little bored of always resorting to arms. My next game I aim to win by diplomatic or perhaps space race, so I'm going to focus on staying at the top of the tech ladder and maintaining healthy relations with everyone. I guess that means getting Republic and switching to Democracy if I'm religious?

Yes. Democracy during peace can work well, but is too much of a risk for non religious civilizations.

By the way, which civlization would you recommend for a rather peaceful, say Industrial Age GA civilization that focuses more on diplomacy? I have always played an early warmonger with very early GA (and now I'm beginning to understand the downsides). On top of that, I love mounted units, so I often go for Iraquois or someone that has a Knight UU (last game was with the Chinese). I normally fight wars that wipe the enemy out, so I want to change it this game, fight short wars while keeping international profile in high regard.

Try India. Religious (for the government experiments), and commercial makes them a bit more efficient than normal, and they have one of the best UUs in the game. They're kind of a slow starter though, so that should keep you away from your early warmongering.

edit: also, another front that I really suck at is Wonders. I don't build any Wonders at all (I always used to focus on Sun Tzu's, Leonardo's and Smith's, however they come at the time when I normally struggle the most). For my next game, I want to set up a city for Wonders and get at least 1-2 per era. I understand that this means that I have to be ahead in technology and prebuild with Palace, but how do I choose the location for this city? Focused around an area with lots of shield? I guess open sea is must have for many Wonders. In short: how do you pick your Wonder city?

My wonder city is usually my starting city, since I always start on rivers, due to loving agricultural so much. What I like to do is make tons of workers while my city's size 5 or 6, use them to improve around the city, and when ready, join them all up to size 12. It's faster than waiting for the natural increase from 6 to 12, and it gets lots of work done.

I like the Mausoleum for being cheap, eternal, and important when you only have 1 city of max size, and the rest smaller support cities; it's enough to save a luxury slider position or two. If coastal, the Colossus is worth considering, since it adds lots of commerce as well as being very early, eventually becoming a nice tourist bonus. Great Library is the best wonder, of course. Oracle, Great Wall, and Artemis are only useful as placeholders for the Great Library.

Shakespeare's theater acts as an early hospital, so snatch it (and skip sanitation until later) so you can win all the industrial wonders easily. It's like the Mausoleum on steroids. Overall, the medieval wonders are probably the best, but they frequently require dead end advances, so be careful about not becoming an anachronistic barbarian while chasing for them. Missing Bach really, really hurts.

 

[Higher Game]

Unlike higher_game most players around here seem to prefer Communism to Fascism (I prefer neither). Fascism causes your cities to lose population upon revolt and it has quite a bit of corruption. What type of victory do you want? Generally speaking, The Republic seems the best for *most* games for *most* players. But, if you fight wars in it, you'll have to manage war weariness.

Lots of those players love milking the game, sitting just under the domination limit, and for that, communism works. For normal play, fascism is usually more valuable. If you're loaded with slaves (see: Maya), it can be amazing.

Thanks a lot for everyone's responses.
I' just finished a game on Monarch and will be moving up to Emperor with the next one. Something that I've been gathering from the forums is to have a goal, which is probably my weakest part. I focus on building an army, building culture, improving research, etc all at the same time, and getting everything done in a half-assed way. Something that you could get away with on Regent but not any more as you keep raising the bar.

When in doubt, go military. The jump to Emperor is big, and the jumps beyond it are massive.

I have always played a Warmonger, so I'm getting a little bored of always resorting to arms. My next game I aim to win by diplomatic or perhaps space race, so I'm going to focus on staying at the top of the tech ladder and maintaining healthy relations with everyone. I guess that means getting Republic and switching to Democracy if I'm religious?

Yes. Democracy during peace can work well, but is too much of a risk for non religious civilizations.

By the way, which civlization would you recommend for a rather peaceful, say Industrial Age GA civilization that focuses more on diplomacy? I have always played an early warmonger with very early GA (and now I'm beginning to understand the downsides). On top of that, I love mounted units, so I often go for Iraquois or someone that has a Knight UU (last game was with the Chinese). I normally fight wars that wipe the enemy out, so I want to change it this game, fight short wars while keeping international profile in high regard.

Try India. Religious (for the government experiments), and commercial makes them a bit more efficient than normal, and they have one of the best UUs in the game. They're kind of a slow starter though, so that should keep you away from your early warmongering.

edit: also, another front that I really suck at is Wonders. I don't build any Wonders at all (I always used to focus on Sun Tzu's, Leonardo's and Smith's, however they come at the time when I normally struggle the most). For my next game, I want to set up a city for Wonders and get at least 1-2 per era. I understand that this means that I have to be ahead in technology and prebuild with Palace, but how do I choose the location for this city? Focused around an area with lots of shield? I guess open sea is must have for many Wonders. In short: how do you pick your Wonder city?

My wonder city is usually my starting city, since I always start on rivers, due to loving agricultural so much. What I like to do is make tons of workers while my city's size 5 or 6, use them to improve around the city, and when ready, join them all up to size 12. It's faster than waiting for the natural increase from 6 to 12, and it gets lots of work done.

I like the Mausoleum for being cheap, eternal, and important when you only have 1 city of max size, and the rest smaller support cities; it's enough to save a luxury slider position or two. If coastal, the Colossus is worth considering, since it adds lots of commerce as well as being very early, eventually becoming a nice tourist bonus. Great Library is the best wonder, of course. Oracle, Great Wall, and Artemis are only useful as placeholders for the Great Library.

Shakespeare's theater acts as an early hospital, so snatch it (and skip sanitation until later) so you can win all the industrial wonders easily. It's like the Mausoleum on steroids. Overall, the medieval wonders are probably the best, but they frequently require dead end advances, so be careful about not becoming an anachronistic barbarian while chasing for them. Missing Bach really, really hurts.

 

[Spoonwood]

Lots of those players love milking the game, sitting just under the domination limit, and for that, communism works. For normal play, fascism is usually more valuable.

Actually, they tend to prefer communism even when not playing a milked game. The Sid Vicious game with India provides an example. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=108916

 

[Elear]

My only comment I can add to this thread, off-hand, is that if a player is trying to move up into the higher difficulties (Emperor+), it's probably a good idea to forget about "wonder cities" entirely. Building a wonder can be useful in certain situations, but I tend to think it just ties up too many resources that need to be used to expand, build commerce, and strengthen the military -- none of which are disposable priorities. There are some good articles in the War Academy on this; with practice, it's easy to learn how to play without wonders, even the Great Library.

If you're going for a 20k victory, of course, ignore everything I just said.

 

[Spoonwood]

On Fascism vs. Communism http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81587

 

[FraterPerdurabo]

So albeit all the bright neon warning signs the transition from Monarch -> Emperor was a harder kick in the nuts than I had anticipated. I cannot remember when was the last time I quit a game, or lost it, yet, it's happened over 5-6 times over the past 2 days ;D
Well practice makes perfect.

 

[Aabraxan]

If you're in the process of moving up, I'd suggest "cushioning" the transition a little. Use an archipelago map, or a maybe a powerful start & an agri civ. The Monarch->Emperor jump is tough enough without an "80%-water-pangaea-but-I'm-stuck-in-the-desert-with-no-luxes-or-fresh-water-and-Bismarck-as-a-neighbor" kind of start.

 

[Racinante]

So albeit all the bright neon warning signs the transition from Monarch -> Emperor was a harder kick in the nuts than I had anticipated. I cannot remember when was the last time I quit a game, or lost it, yet, it's happened over 5-6 times over the past 2 days ;D
Well practice makes perfect.

Frequently on Emperor you end up far behind during the ancient and middle ages and may be a bit behind through most of the industrial. Many times I thought about just giving up and starting over specially when I got attacked and beaten to a bloody pulp, but I am glad I didn't as I still managed to pull a win out of many of those.

It may not build character, but it does teach you what you need to focus on to get back into the game.

Happy civving!

 

[Spoonwood]

You can also go into the editor and make a custom level... change "Monarch" so that it has only 1 content citzen born or something and call it "High Monarch" or some such.