Here's MapStat data from the France Sid game I played. Portugal had Republic also, and I suspected that they did the full Republic slingshot. They also built The Sistine Chapel later. Maybe it was mostly an effect of them having many cities early, while also building The Colossus for their GA, and The Colossus's extra commerce at work. I do suspect if I had any scientific opponents, then maybe someone else might have ended up closer to Portugal after they made the middle era change.
Seafaring trait and distance corruption
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Fergei
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I don't find seafaring Civs too underpowered. With harbours they can become teching gods! However, I like the suggestions above about making Courthouses have the seafaring trait (although I prefer buffing militaristic with that and will steal that for myself!).
In terms of my settings, at the time I was playing multiplayer with a friend who simply could not handle starting on a peninsula and would want to quit the game. So what I did was made the palace much cheaper (cost 7), but only able to build before mapmaking (as a result of me using the palace to auto-produce settlers until mapmaking, so really just a coincidence). That way, if, as a human, you feel you are experiencing these coastal corruption issues, you simply settle inland and move your palace. Same if the AI plants in your face and hampers any future sensible city distribution (to manage corruption).
I haven't studied it, but I don't think the AI will ever use this. But as I say, I don't think the AI suffers unduly with being seafaring and it'll probably build courthouses everywhere anyway. The only seafaring Civ I think regularly underperforms is the Vikings, and even they are often quite decent.
In terms of my settings, at the time I was playing multiplayer with a friend who simply could not handle starting on a peninsula and would want to quit the game. So what I did was made the palace much cheaper (cost 7), but only able to build before mapmaking (as a result of me using the palace to auto-produce settlers until mapmaking, so really just a coincidence). That way, if, as a human, you feel you are experiencing these coastal corruption issues, you simply settle inland and move your palace. Same if the AI plants in your face and hampers any future sensible city distribution (to manage corruption).
I haven't studied it, but I don't think the AI will ever use this. But as I say, I don't think the AI suffers unduly with being seafaring and it'll probably build courthouses everywhere anyway. The only seafaring Civ I think regularly underperforms is the Vikings, and even they are often quite decent.
Predator145
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It makes perfect thematic sense but the AI can't use it properly as they are already bad at city placement. I'm still in the process of testing whether the free corruption reducing SW generated improvement on all cities is too strong. In my mods, you can't suicide explore anything until Mapmaking. And even then, galleys can only move 1 tile on ocean terrain. So that mostly neuters contact cheese. That leaves Seafaring with the coastal commerce and ship movement bonuses. On a land heavy map, that just makes them discount Commercial.
On the other hand, giving them free corruption fighting improvements just makes them even more like Commercial. How still make the trait flavorful and unique while improving AI performance as well as decrease map dependence?
I'm thinking about having them start with a transport ship. How to do that? Have a 0 shield SW producing transports (I use Aaglo's Hokulea and call it "Voyaging Canoe"). Use C3X to limit the total number of that unit to 1 (or any number you like them to start with). Use C3X to heavily perfume the SW (like 10000 value) to have the Seafaring AI build it ASAP in their coastal capital. Have that SW produce the unit in 1 turn. Have it go obsolete with Mapmaking if you don't want it later on.
If you use C3X to opt for the AI not escorting their settlers, the AI can use transports with the carry capacity of just 1 to settle. If you play with stock game settings, your transport needs to have a carry capacity of 2.
Let's hope the AI uses that to settle on coastal areas. I haven't tested this.
timerover51
Deity
I use the standard game, as I am still evaluating Flintlock's mod, but I have no problem with the AI settling on coastal areas. This is especially true with the increases in resource yield that I have made for coastal cities. If a coastal tile is nearby, the AI heads straight for it.
Another idea: make some unique coastal building, increasing shields/commerce/both on water tiles, availible with "Seafaring" none-era tech, and also commercial dock/offshore platform/both obsolete by that tech. So seafaring civs would get advantage of that buildings much earlier.
Predator145
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The AI has no clue about resource yields. They settle randomly. Play enough on debug and you'll see them settle on cows, wheats and 1 tile away from the coast.
timerover51
Deity
I respectfully disagree.
timerover51
Deity
My personal observation of the behavior of the AI when under Debug mode compared to the standard game is that the AI behaves differently under Debug than it does in the standard game.
Predator145
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Do you mind posting screenshots? That makes no logical sense. Debug is called debug for a reason.
timerover51
Deity
I will see what i can do.
Predator145
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Best way to find out is to play a pangea game with all seafaring civs on normal mode. Play to the point where you can get the world map and this shall give you a good idea how the AI settles.
Predator145
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More test results. I have come the conclusion that basically giving a free courthouse in every city is a tad too much. It's balanced for the first couple cities to make up for the bad core that the Seafaring trait is hardcoded to cause, but once the empire gets big it starts get insane.
In this game, my capital was as ugly as it could be. Right in the corner. and yet in democracy a far flung city like Exerter is quite productive.
The sheer amount of commerce and shield bonuses helped me rake in 1200 gpt. I was able to keep up in tech easily through just buying. The game was won in the 1300s.
I guess free courthouses and settlers costing 1 pop are both too much. Back to the drawing board on how to mod these 2 inconsistent, map and cheese reliant traits.
In this game, my capital was as ugly as it could be. Right in the corner. and yet in democracy a far flung city like Exerter is quite productive.
The sheer amount of commerce and shield bonuses helped me rake in 1200 gpt. I was able to keep up in tech easily through just buying. The game was won in the 1300s.
I guess free courthouses and settlers costing 1 pop are both too much. Back to the drawing board on how to mod these 2 inconsistent, map and cheese reliant traits.
timerover51
Deity
I am presently play a game on a modified Warhammer map, see Downloads section, converted to wraparound. I am playing Israel, converted from Babylonians, and it is not a Seafaring civilization. The civilization nearest to me is India, also a not Seafaring civilization. India has just settled on a one-tile jungle island that has no future resources. Remember, I control the map and resources. However, it can take the benefit of my increased Coastal, Sea, and Ocean resources, with the added benefit of no possible pollution problems. Water will not pollute in the game. With the boosts given to it by the various improvements that I have modified, adding food, shields, and gold, it will have a very productive city in the future.
Predator145
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This is typical example of the AI not being able to make good use of the Seafaring coastal commerce bonus. Their city placement is atrocious. Not only do they not place enough cities (you wanna maximize the amount of coastal cities), they sometimes place a city 1 tile away from the coast. Yes, 90% of the time they place them next to the coast line. But once in a while you will see this:
timerover51
Deity
The AI also likes to plant cities on future resources. That may be the case here.
Fergei
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I don't find the seafaring city placements too bad, so I'm inclined to agree with timerover on this one. At least, I'd say the seafaring coastal city placements are less bad (on average) than the AI city placements (in land or coastal non-seafaring) generally.
I also don't think seafaring needs too much of a buff because although their productivity takes a hit, their positioning by being coastal often reduces the extent to which they have vulnerable borders with other Civs, making them harder to attack. Its not uncommon for 20-40% of the border of a seafaring empire to be securely backed on to water. Of course, the AI can't take advantage of this so much, but the human player can really skimp on defending those coastal fringes and focus defenders inland.
I also don't think seafaring needs too much of a buff because although their productivity takes a hit, their positioning by being coastal often reduces the extent to which they have vulnerable borders with other Civs, making them harder to attack. Its not uncommon for 20-40% of the border of a seafaring empire to be securely backed on to water. Of course, the AI can't take advantage of this so much, but the human player can really skimp on defending those coastal fringes and focus defenders inland.
