CoS Discussion: Section F - Forum Poll Procedures

[ravensfire]

DG2 CoS SectionF - Forum Poll Procedures

F.  Forum Poll Procedures 
  1. The following criteria are required for a poll to be binding: 
    a. Quorum levels must be met. 
      1. Quorum for polls is 1/3 of the active census within the first       
         24 hours or; 
      2. 1/2 of the active census after the first 24 hours. 
    b. Approval levels must be achieved. 
      1. In the first 24 hours a super plurality is required. 
        (a) To "win" the poll in the first 24 hours, a category must 
            receive at least double the votes received by the 
            next highest choice. 
      2. After the first 24 hours a simple plurality is required. 
      3. If "Abstain" ever holds plurality at the end of a poll, the 
         poll is not binding. 
  2. The following criteria are required for a poll to be valid: 
    a. Discussion thread open for 24 hours, minimum. 
    b. Poll type in the header and first post. 
    c. Poll end dates/times noted in the first post. 
      1. End dates/times can be conditional. (Example: poll ends at 
         the beginning of the next chat turn) 
    d. Participation requirement (quorum needed) noted in the first post. 
    e. Link to relevant discussion threads in the first post. 
    f. Inclusion of an "Abstain" option. 
    g. Link to the poll in the Poll Registry. 
  3. The following criteria are preferred for all polls: 
    a. Proposed poll, up for 24 hours minimum. 
    b. Poll posted with link from discussion thread. 
    c. Poll duration minimum of 24 hours (48 hours plus is preferred). 
      1. If the poll runs into the weekend it is advised that the 
         duration be extended by 24 hours for each weekend day. 
         Forum participation is much lower on the weekends. 
    d. Link to the poll in the appropriate Department thread. 
  4. Information polls - Do not have restrictions and cannot be used 
     to justify policy, plans or actions. 
    a. All polls posted by Leaders are considered Official unless 
       specifically noted to be informational in the header and first post.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ybbor]

wow! those are some confusing rules, maybe reword the thing a bit, so it's less confusing, also, take out 1.a.1. ; 1.b.1. (a), that's kind of demeanding; part 3 should either e be required, or have a stricter majority required if it is not followed, a constitution isn't supposed to make sugestions, it's supposed to make rules and requirements, niethjer of which 3 fufils

 

[Cyc]

Actually, ybbor, F.1.a (1 & 2) work pretty well as a team. One is prior 24 hrs. and can make for a quick poll in time constrained issues before a Turn Chat. The other is post 24 hrs. making for a normal poll.

About F.3, this legislation is for the CoS, which is basically a book of approved guidelines or Standards. It is a supporting book for the Constitution that helps define the main document. Therefore recomended guidelines are the norm in wording for polls (which is a very tricky subject!).

BTW, the word "active" should be taken out of F.1.a.1 and 2.

 

[ravensfire]

Okay, I'm to complicate this a bit, to simplify some other sections.

Various sections include the concept of a "refusal poll". I would like to make this section define and cover a refusal poll.

F.  Poll Procedures 
  1. Forum Poll
    i. The following criteria are required for a forum poll to be binding: 
      a. Quorum levels must be met. 
        1. Quorum for forum polls is 1/3 of the census within the first       
           24 hours or; 
        2. 1/2 of the census after the first 24 hours. 
      b. Approval levels must be achieved. 
        1. In the first 24 hours a super plurality is required. 
          (a) To "win" the poll in the first 24 hours, a category must 
              receive at least double the votes received by the 
              next highest choice. 
        2. After the first 24 hours a simple plurality is required. 
        3. If "Abstain" ever holds plurality at the end of a poll, the 
           forum poll is not binding. 
    ii. The following criteria are required for a forum poll to be valid: 
      a. Discussion thread open for 24 hours, minimum. 
      b. Poll type in the header and first post. 
      c. Forum Poll end dates/times noted in the first post. 
        1. End dates/times can be conditional. (Example: poll ends at 
           the beginning of the next chat turn) 
      d. Participation requirement (quorum needed) noted in the first post. 
      e. Link to relevant discussion threads in the first post. 
      f. Inclusion of an "Abstain" option. 
      g. Link to the poll in the Poll Registry. 
    iii. The following criteria are preferred for all forum polls: 
      a. Proposed poll, up for 24 hours minimum. 
      b. Forum poll posted with link from discussion thread. 
      c. Forum poll duration minimum of 24 hours (48 hours plus is preferred). 
        1. If the forum poll runs into the weekend it is advised that the 
           duration be extended by 24 hours for each weekend day. 
           Forum participation is much lower on the weekends. 
      d. Link to the forum poll in the appropriate Department thread. 
  2.  Informational polls
    i.  Do not have restrictions and cannot be used 
        to justify policy, plans or actions. 
      a. All polls posted by Leaders are considered Forum Polls unless 
         specifically noted to be informational in the header and first post.
  3.  Refusal Polls
    i.  Any citizen may request a refusal poll to be posted within 24 hours
        of any citizen being appointed to an elected office.
    ii.  The person who appointed the citizen to the office must create a
         poll within 24 hours of the refusal request.
      a.  Failure to post the poll shall result in the appoinment nullified
      b.  Poll shall contain Yes, No and Abstain options.
      c.  Poll shall run for 48 hours.
      d.  Should there fail to be a majority of votes in support of the 
          appointment, the appointment is nullified.
    iii.  If the appointment is nullified, the person making the appointment
          must appoint a different citizent to the office.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

The only trouble (it hasn't reached problem state yet. ) I have with this is the infexability of Section F.ii.

In particular, b, c, and f.

Is be really neccessary if it is an official poll? It should only really be required to post poll type if it is informational only. (b.)

Official end/date times - Can poll duration posted in hours fall under the conditional phrasing? (c.)

Not all polls require an ABSTAIN option, in fact, that option can cause more problems thatn not in some polls. In those cases, not voting would be the same as ABSTAIN. Therefore, I believe a poll can still be valid without having an ABSTAIN option.

Speaking of Valid polls, how do they relate to Binding polls? Why do we feel it's neccessary to clarify Valid polls if they are not directly related tothose that are binding?

 

[ravensfire]

Cyc,

Some good points there - it's going to be late Saturday, at best, before I will be looking through this again. Barring it being addressed by someone else, I'll look at this then.

Sorry - it's just been a hectic evening.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Cyc, would you believe I've finally gotten to responding to your questions?

Love the season, hate the time demands!

Let's see, first question - do we need F.1.ii.b (poll type in header and first post) so long as informational polls are labeled as such? No, no we don't. DG3 proved that point quite well.

Second question - can poll duration posted in hours fall under conditional phrasing? Not entirely sure what you mean .. but I'll guess. Technically, yes - poll duration is a standard form of conditional phrasing - this poll is open until XX hours have passed. The intent of the conditional phrasing is to allow "Poll open until 1 hour prior to chat" type stuff. Does that answer your question?

Third question - valid vs binding, and how do they relate. Well, valid's Aunt married the third cousin, twice removed of binding, so they only barely relate to each other.

Couldn't help myself there! Valid and binding are two different concepts, thus the two seperate clauses. Valid is the criteria for if the poll even needs to be looked at - is this a legal poll or not? Binding is the criteria for the results of the poll being considered the Will of the People, and thus direct a course of action. A poll may be valid, but not binding; but never invalid and binding. I'm actually going to switch the order of those sections to reflect that concept. After all, how can an illegal poll be binding? In fact, I'll add that as a criteria to the binding list - poll must be valid.

Fourth question - abstain. It seems abstain is one of those traditions that you don't really like. It's not my favorite either. It is, however, a strong tradition in this game. Can we say when it should or should not be listed? By that, I'm asking if we can list some conditions that would cause abstain to be listed or not.

-- Ravensfire

 

[zorven]

I don't quite understand what you mean in section 1.i when you say withing 24 hours and after 24 hours. Do you mean if the poll is only open for 24 hours?

In section 1.ii, any valid polling within 24 hours before a chat would not be allowed. Is this the intent or are the exceptions to be made? For example, emergency polling done by Leaders would be ok without 24 hours of prior discussion.

Section 1.ii.g - I think this requirement should state that the link should be posted withing X time of the poll being posted. Otherwise you could end up where the link is posted after the polled is closed, everyone thinks the poll is invalid, then the link is posted and the poll result suddenly becomes valid and binding.

 

[Furiey]

I too find the wording of within 24 hours and after 24 hours confusing - it sounds like the same poll has different quorum and approval levels depending on how far along it is timewise. Does the following wording help to simplify it at all?

F.1.i.a.1. Quorum for forum polls of 24 hours or less in length is 1/3 of the census,
F.1.i.a.2. Quorum for forum polls greater than 24 hours in length is 1/2 of the census.

F.1.i.b.1. Polls of 24 hours or less in length require a super plurality.
F.1.i.b.1.(a) To "win" a poll of 24 hours or less, a category must receive at least double the votes received by the next highest choice.
F.1.i.b.2. Polls greater than 24 hours in length require a simple plurality.

Or possibly even combine b.1 and b.1.(a) to give:

F.1.i.b.1. To win a poll of 24 hours or less in length a choice must receive at least double the votes received by the next highest choice.

Similarly say what F.1.i.b.1 means rather than simple plurality.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by zorven
I don't quite understand what you mean in section 1.i when you say withing 24 hours and after 24 hours. Do you mean if the poll is only open for 24 hours?

zorven, here's how I interpreted this (much of this came from DG2). This allows for a wildy popular poll to become official in the first 24 hours if the criteria (1/3 census + supermajority) is reached. If it doesn't meet that criteria, the poll runs for the stated length using the normal criteria for approval.

It would greatly simplify things to remove the two-stage process. Run the poll to it's end - you decide then and only then if it's correct or not.

In section 1.ii, any valid polling within 24 hours before a chat would not be allowed. Is this the intent or are the exceptions to be made? For example, emergency polling done by Leaders would be ok without 24 hours of prior discussion.

I could be wildly optimistic that no emergencies will happen, can't I? I don't have a good answer though. What if the situation is discovered 15 minutes before the chat? What if it's 2 hours before the chat? 20 hours?

If a situation is discovered less than a day from a chat session, discussion only is probably the best answer. There is nothing that requires a leader to poll something - only that they follow the will of the people. WotP can be expressed in both polls and discussions. Given the time constraints, any instructions the leader posts will be probably be discussion driven.

Section 1.ii.g - I think this requirement should state that the link should be posted withing X time of the poll being posted. Otherwise you could end up where the link is posted after the polled is closed, everyone thinks the poll is invalid, then the link is posted and the poll result suddenly becomes valid and binding.

True, very true. How about: "h. All criteria must be met within 4 hours of creating the poll, excepting minor typos and corrections"?

-- Ravensfire

 

[zorven]

Ravensfire,

I think the whole 24 hour, 2 stage thing should be scrapped. Just run the poll to its stated end. As written it would be too confusing/complicated. Especially if it wins within the 24 hour rules and ends up losing by the time the poll closes. That could cause all kind of trouble!

I guess you are right that a poll is not required by leaders - that they can use discussion only.

I think your new section h would be fine.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by zorven
Ravensfire,

I think the whole 24 hour, 2 stage thing should be scrapped. Just run the poll to its stated end. As written it would be too confusing/complicated. Especially if it wins within the 24 hour rules and ends up losing by the time the poll closes. That could cause all kind of trouble!

That was exactly the circumstance I was thinking of when I was thinking it over!

-- Ravensfire

 

[Bootstoots]

I think that we should abolish the quorum for ordinary polls. Last DG, there were no conflicts over polls not having a defined quorum, and I feel that it worked very well without them. I do support quorums in polls that involve such things as rule amendments and perhaps refusal polls, but ordinary things like "Should we establish an embassy with China?" shouldn't require a quorum to approve in polls. Also, the concept of having a poll that passes if 1/3 of the active census approves it in less than 24 hours but require 1/2 for greater than 24 hours seems illogical to me.

 

[Furiey]

Originally posted by zorven
Especially if it wins within the 24 hour rules and ends up losing by the time the poll closes. That could cause all kind of trouble!

It was this very problem that made me think that it must be the length of the poll that was in question and propose the revisions that I did!

 

[DaveShack]

I'm opposed to use of quorums in day to day polls, as unnecessary. Can't remember offhand any situations during DG3 where a quorum would have mattered.

Also if a poll is declared a 'winner' in the first 24 hours by meeting a supermajority of 1/3 the census, for audit trail purposes a mod would have to close the poll. Otherwise you have a situation of a leader seeing a 2/3 majority and acting on the apparently successful poll, and then a final poll result which doesn't agree.

For an example of one where this can cause a problem, take the "should we build an embassy" type poll -- should a "no" vote be interpreted as "definitely not", or should it be interpreted as "we don't think you need to, but you're the boss"? For the former, the leader who acts on the 1st 24 hours result is open to a complaint. For the latter, taking the more lenient interpretation, it doesn't really matter what the poll result is.

 

[ravensfire]

V1.1

[code]
F.  Poll Procedures 
  1. Forum Poll
    i. The following criteria are required for a forum poll to be binding: 
      a. Approval levels must be achieved. 
        1. A simple plurality is required. 
        3. If "Abstain" ever holds plurality at the end of a poll, the 
           forum poll is not binding. 
    ii. The following criteria are required for a forum poll to be valid: 
      a. Discussion thread open for 24 hours, minimum. 
      b. Poll type in the header and first post. 
      c. Forum Poll end dates/times noted in the first post. 
        1. End dates/times can be conditional. (Example: poll ends at 
           the beginning of the next chat turn) 
      d. Participation requirement (quorum needed) noted in the first post. 
      e. Link to relevant discussion threads in the first post. 
      f. Inclusion of an "Abstain" option. 
      g. Link to the poll in the Poll Registry. 
    iii. The following criteria are preferred for all forum polls: 
      a. Proposed poll, up for 24 hours minimum. 
      b. Forum poll posted with link from discussion thread. 
      c. Forum poll duration minimum of 24 hours (48 hours plus is preferred). 
        1. If the forum poll runs into the weekend it is advised that the 
           duration be extended by 24 hours for each weekend day. 
           Forum participation is much lower on the weekends. 
      d. Link to the forum poll in the appropriate Department thread. 
      e. Vote options given explanations, if not immediately apparent
        Example:  Yes (I want to build the embassy.)  
                  No (I do not want to build the embassy.)
                  Abstain (I don't care if we build the embassy.)
  2.  Informational polls
    i.  Do not have restrictions and cannot be used to justify policy, 
        plans or actions. 
      a. All polls posted by Leaders are considered Forum Polls unless 
         specifically noted to be informational in the header and first post.
  3.  Refusal Polls
    i.  Any citizen may request a refusal poll to be posted within 24 hours
        of any citizen being appointed to an elected office.
    ii.  The person who appointed the citizen to the office must create a
         poll within 24 hours of the refusal request.
      a.  Failure to post the poll shall result in the appoinment nullified
      b.  Poll shall contain Yes, No and Abstain options.
      c.  Poll shall run for 48 hours.
      d.  Should there fail to be a majority of votes in support of the 
          appointment, the appointment is nullified.
    iii.  If the appointment is nullified, the person making the appointment
          must appoint a different citizent to the office.

[/code]

Changelog
V1.1
* Removed quorum levels
* Removed two-tiered approval (with 24 hours, after 24 hours)
* Added preference to explain options in plain english: example - Yes - I want to build the embassy. No - I do not want to build the embassy. Abstain - I don't care if we build the embassy.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Furiey]

A minor point: the example in F.1.ii.c.1. would be too late to be a legal instruction according to the ongoing discussion in that thread, and cause complications with the "act in accordance with this poll" type of instruction. The following might be better:
Example: poll ends 1 hour before the beginning of the next turn chat.
We wouldn't want someone to follow the example only to fall foul elsewhere!

 

[Cyc]

Excellent point, Furiey. As we're stating an example, we should make it a bonafide, legally accurate example.

 

[zorven]

What happened to "h. All criteria must be met within 4 hours of creating the poll, excepting minor typos and corrections"?

F.1.ii.b - this requirement is only listed for Forum Polls. Why have this requirement for only one type of poll and not all polls?

F.1.ii.b appears to be unnecessary as Forum polls only require a simple plurality as defined in F.1.i.a.

Where is F.1.i.a.2?

 

[ravensfire]

That would be the hash pipe I'm smoking!

Err, look for V1.2 to come out shortly.

-- Ravensfire