COTM 09 Spoiler 2: Middle Ages or End of Game

[juballs2001]

@ Juballs --

This thread is for discussing events that took place in the middle ages, not for discussing what happened in the industrial or modern age, although obviously no spoilers were in what you said. I realize the thread title is a bit ambiguous; I'll try to do better next time.

Also, for future reference, you shouldn't be posting about "end of game" until you have submitted your save, and I don't see yours yet in the list. Let one of the staff know if you have any trouble uploading.

Thanks,
Renata

it claerly says middle ages or end of game, so i just posted that...

 

[Mistfit]

I've always assumed that to mean if your game ended in the middle ages. Recently we've been having 3 spoilers and the third one is for Industrial and Modern times.

 

[Renata]

True, but juballs is new; he probably didn't realize. And I did word the title a bit ambiguously. No harm done, at any rate.

I do need the game to be submitted, though.

Renata

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Middle Ages update: 0430BC-1325AD
Goal: long term city development; depending on time either diplomacy, spaceship or histograph

Meeting Civs: It wasn’t until 0170BC that I finally met the last of the other civs.

Golden Age: 0210BC build Great Lighthouse, in 0190BC build Statue of Zeus starting my GA

Research: Went slow. I had not built libraries, as I normally don’t, as I normally quit researching early. Why I didn’t change I can’t really explain except out of habit and hope I would find a 2-turn route to the other continent. Initially gifted Babylon into MA, they got Feudalism. I went directly for Navigation as quickly as I could. I didn’t trade much as I was hoping to start war before Gunpowder, which was a foolish notion. In 610AD I finally got to Navigation and traded Babylon (something earlier) for Gunpowder.

Military Adventures: There was generally peace in the world until I showed up on the other continent. I should have had them fighting with each other, but didn’t. I had already built the SoZ, so I had Ancient Cavalry and had only built Archers/Berserks otherwise.

When I was ready to start Babylon & Hittities had Gunpowder, so I decided to start at China and move around the continent like one would write a C.

0640AD-0720AD War vs. China
I started off using heavy transport to move 11 Ancient Cav & 4 Berserks. Celts joined me in the fun. I had 19 Archers in waiting, but was in the process of building Leonardo’s Workshop and gaining money now. Captured Great Wall in Beijing in 0650AD. Since I had a city with a barracks on the continent, I moved all my archers over awaiting their upgrade. I used 6 ships to set up a continuous one turn chain (move 6; 3 space separation). I also moved 2 ships to the inside of the C and 3 ships to the outside of the C to attack coastal cities.

0810AD-0940AD War vs. Celts
I wait until our RoP is done so it doesn’t hurt future trading with others (normally I break these). They have gunpowder and must be trading for saltpeter; I see musketmen on the border. I have 9 Ancient Cav and 39 Berserks in world. I capture 6 of 11 cities on 1st turn – basically only the 3 cities closest to the Chinese had upgrade to musketmen, the Berserks attacking deep into their rear face little resistance; Zulu joins us in 0820AD, then attacks us in 0830AD, taking a city I just took close to them. On the second turn I lose most of my AC’s due to 2 riflemen in an internal city, but it falls. Only 1 city deposed during this time.

0830AD-0950AD War vs. Zulu
As mentioned above, they attacked us winning a former Celtic city on their attack. Babylon joins us & Hittities join Babylon. In the end, Hittities destroyed them and ended up with 3 of their cities, which was annoying.

0870AD-0930AD; 1200AD War vs. America
Need to go through them to get to last Celt city (and to the Zulu by land, though I go around with boats) and they only have 4 cities total. I plan to leave one American city as it is least advanced; make peace after leaving them one city; this will be the one city I leave; 0950-Washington deposed, In 1200AD destroy Washington, leaving America the last city on the map. They are way back in technology.

Great Leaders: None for about the first 40 elite combats, which was frustrating as Vikings are slow when trying to capture internal cities, but then they came fast. I decided to do Berserk armies instead of AC armies as I had more Berserks than boats and wan’t a really tough fast unit.
0920AD – First Great Leader (forms Berserk Army)
0940AD – Second Great Leader (forms Berserk Army)
0970AD – Third Great Leader (forms Berserk Army)

0960AD -1030AD War vs. Babylon
Get Hittities & Netherlands to join in – foolish peoples. Only 1 city deposed the entire time. In 1020 I capture Babylon & their last city; and finally in 1030 I sink a boat w/ their last settler. The Viking boats are effective again.

1030AD – 1070AD; 1180AD - 1200AD War vs. Netherlands
In 1040AD I stop building military. I have 3 Armies, 44 Berserks, and 8 Ancient Cav. The six chain ships will become assault landing craft. In 1070AD the Netherlands land on my main continent, where I have no defense left. I make peace and build a couple more military units. Eventually I convince them to leave. I redeclare war in 1180AD and finish them off. Two more deposed cities against them.

1090AD – 1130AD War vs. Hittities
For being the toughest civ on the map, geographically separated in two areas, this was quite easy with 11 boats filled with Berserks and 3 Berserk Armies.

So in 1200AD I had command of the world. Now I block in America with land and sea forces and expand cities on the continent to get close to the domination limit. Also put out some forces to stop barbarians from rising. I change my government in 1285AD, with a six-turn anarchy, to Democracy. I have 29 native workers and 53 captured workers to work the land. In 1325AD I enter the Industrial Age.

Not building libraries was just plain stupid and really slowed me down, but as I said earlier, I’m not used to researching this far. Not starting a bunch of wars on the continent was a bad idea also. Using Berserks for coastal attacks worked very effectively. After I got Armies, the slow progress on internal cities no longer existed.

Absolutely awesome map Renata. I really like these unique maps that take me out of my standard sequence.

 

[Tubby Rower]

The Celts Attack! – And I smack myself. After cooperating with me in the Chinese war, Brennus begins to regret his earlier actions and attempts to drive the Viking scourge back into the sea. All my troops were elsewhere, so they take all my former Chinese cities in a couple turns. Since this is about the point where I reach the Industrial age, I’ll leave the rest for the third spoiler.

The same thing happened to me... I'm glad that I was preparing to go after the Hittites and was able to bring the Hittites & Chinese after them. I had an ROP & MPP with the Celts and they decided that they wanted no more of it.....

 

[Denniz]

OPEN

Early on I decided to go for a peaceful VC. I built full infrastructure in the core cities around my Place and FP (FP was central to island). The Hittites and the Celts were the big bullies eventually eliminating everyone except for a single Dutch city. I was allied with the Celts against the Hittites. I started to sandwich cities between Celt cities in the former China area. Eventually, I was able to flip 3-4 of them to me by building temples and libraries all around them.

My first use of berserkers was to finish off the last two Chinese cities at the mouth of the cresent. Later I was to use them to raze a half-dozen Hittite coastal cities, most of them around his core. That really slowed him down.

As is usual, something went wrong with my attempts to speed research. Most of the MA went at a 6-8 turn rate. Things were mostly uneventful, just gradually slowing research towards UN (min of 8-9 towards the end). The other civs barely made it into the IA. They probably wouldn't have without a few trades to get Lux and gpt from them.

I know we are not supposed to post things from after the MA but there isn't enough to merit another post. Just a rather poor 5K diplo win in the mid-1700's. The only good thing as it only took me 15.5 hours. Of course, that could be the reason for the poor results, too Too much clicking nor enough thinking.

One of these days I am going figure out how to get better research rates in C3C. I do all the normal things: gpt trades, wonders, improvements, specialists, etc. I always seem to do better in PTW with the availability of a second core.

What do people think: How many is too many improvements in core or non-core? Was expanding off the initial island a good thing for research or bad? Or is better to get alot of cities contributing a couple beakers as in ICS? Some of it is timing, expansion vs. infrastructure.

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, I've read every word of this thread thus far, and I side with Aeson.

 

[Redbad]

Arrrr, I've read every word of this thread thus far, and I side with Aeson.

If you read every word you should have sided with Renata.

 

[CarnDaWoods]

I played OPEN. No notes, so this is from memory.

I decided to wait until Navigation before invading the continent.

By then I had upgraded whatever archers I had to berserkers (more than 20, but not 30), and had about 10 or AC's from SofZ.

The Hittites fell (really) quickly. Their coastal towns succumbed to seaborne Berserkers very easily. I used the AC (and a couple of berserkers) to take out the capital.

But I was wary of using the same trick on the Dutch Swiss pikeman. And Babylon was the cultural monster in my game and had muskets (and the Chinese were the biggest power, the Celts had already been eliminated). So I sent my Berserkers via the inner sea to the only coastal Zulu city near their capital, took that, and headed overland with my Berserkers and AC's.

This marked the end of my sea borne invasions. I spent the rest of my time ferrying troops to the inner sea, near the old Zulu capital (8 turns from my isle). Eventually I did swap my drop off point to one of the old Babylonian cities on the opposite shore (only 4, then 3 turns from my home isle), but this was much later.

The Zulu's only lasted as long as it took me to get to them. And the Americans were in the way of some of their cities, so they went to.

This left me, the Babylonians, the Dutch and the Chinese left. But I noticed the Babylonians had upgraded to rifleman, so I started bringing over my musketman, went to the IA and waited to see who would attack me first.

 

[Jove]

If you read every word you should have sided with Renata.

Arrrr, 1st Amendment, baby!

 

[Zelda's Man]

I have a general question regarding the game of the month. I just finished my first try and I noticed that my score was not placed into the hall of fame on my computer. Is this typical for games of the month? Is it because the game was modded or is there a problem?

 

[Don Vito]

Sorry, sending more ships in a stack does not improve the odds of surviving. Rather, having ships wait for the others to be completed delays the potential earlies date of contact. <edit>Also, sending the ships in different directions more tiles can be discovered</edit>

I didnt say anywhere that i sent them in stack.

I said i sent them at the same turn, but all to different derections

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I have a general question regarding the game of the month. I just finished my first try and I noticed that my score was not placed into the hall of fame on my computer. Is this typical for games of the month? Is it because the game was modded or is there a problem?

It's because it was modded. The slightest change to the biq will result in no HoF entry; already changing the city names, or a handmade map will result in this (and as such, no xotM should over result in a HoF entry).

 

[solenoozerec]

Predator
Domination victory at 790AD

Map
Before I realized that other world look like a banana, I thought it is a head of a wolf who wants to eat me:

Slowing AI research
Through all game I kept AI fighting. An exception was Babylon and Celts who were my allies and they did not fight against each other.

My own research
This was a big question whether to research to Navigation at maximum speed or to try to invade other continent trying ship chaining and losing galleys in the ocean.
It was a hard decision. Taking into account that I do not like to research and we are seafaring civ, I decided at least to try stopping research after invention and see how it will go.

Ship chaining
I never tried it before, I thought that it is very time consuming, needs a lot of organization and is not worth it. How wrong I was.
This was the greatest discovery in this game. Ship chaining is not difficult to manage and it is an extremely powerful approach for unit movement. With something like in the image below you could transport any unit from any location to any location within the inner shore:

From now I probably will use it even on Pangaea maps. I did not loose any unit in the ocean, although I made a mistake three times and galleys with berserks were under danger in the ocean. Just for fun I kept track of lost galleys. I lost 24 galleys (not counting exploring couraghs). It is not that many if you take in account how many units we usually loose in the battles during entire game.

Volcanoes
Volcanoes were extremely active, particularly in the beginning of the game, sometimes they produced damage. At some point barbarian village was borrowed under lava. At another point in 70BC a road to gems was destroyed by one of those eruptions which resulted in unrest:

I think that I was lucky that none of my cities was lost.

Aeson experiment
I just want to confirm that Aeson proposal (investigation of a potential exploit, see spoiler 1) is possible: In 330BC Hittites gave us Tyrana (we later gifted it to Babylon). This was first Scandinavian city on the big land. It had even a harbor.

The only trouble is to fit a lot of units in it in order to make it next capital in case of a palace jump. I have no idea how it is possible. I am not sure that I would go for this even if I knew about it and it would be allowed.

Rest of the game
I surely did a lot of mistakes during the game, could be more accurate. In general it was pretty much monotonous. Below is a progress:

Now to GOTM40

 

[solenoozerec]

As I read entire spoiler now, I think I should add something else:
It seems to me that I was the only one who did not research even Monotheism. I did not intend to, and I stopped fighting with Dutch who had Great Library, because if I capture it, I probability would destroy it (if Americans knew education it would make ToA obsolete).
The only MA techs I knew were those that were needed for Invention, I love AAC and may go for it in GOTM40.

 

[eldar]

Open.

I abandoned my game as it was going bad, fast.

First off, the tech pace on the AI continent was swift, and mine was slow (I'd built the GL, and was at 0% research). I should maybe have stirred up some wars there, because by the time I got to Navigation and landed my invasion force, they were too close to the IA.

Secondly, after the Hittites, I went after the Dutch. The Hittites were a logical first choice, they'd DoW'd me anyhow, and had the Pyramids, and Saltpeter, and Furs. I'd lucked out when an Iron source appeared in my territory early on, so I had Knights available to supplement my Berserks.

So the Hittites fell easily enough, and I finished off the campaign by getting a MGL, used for a Knight army.

The Dutch campaign was nothing short of disastrous:
- Two of the three cities I went after were on hills. Swiss Mercs on hills just wouldn't budge, and of course, I kicked off the Dutch GA so they had a seemingly endless supply.
- Somebody was trading them Horses, so they had Knights.
- I'm sure the RNG didn't like me anyway - making up for being ridiculously kind against the Hittites, for instance twice ACs killed Muskets flawlessly.
- Halfway through the war, Babylon contacted me... offering an MPP. Yeah, maybe I should've taken it. At least the Dutch wouldn't have been rolling out Rifles (never saw any though).
- I'd sold all my Libraries etc. and was at 0% research.
- The turn after both my Armies (1 knight, 1 cav) had been killed, and the only Dutch city I'd captured flipped, and they'd landed a Knight next to an undefended city, I signed peace with them and gave up. Resurrecting it is possible, sure, but I'm not that sure I'd want to.

Pah.

Neil.

 

[CKS]

Open, going for 20K

After a mediocre AA, my middle ages were messy, but they went reasonably well for me. I went for navigation, then invaded the other lands slowly, mostly with berserks and then cavalry.

Wars: I started with the Hittites, because they had iron and saltpeter and because I knew they'd already been at war. I declared in 970, allied the Babylonians for ivory, and took Harran with berserks, starting my golden age. Harran had only spearmen in defense and it had saltpeter. I net two more cities in 20 turns, and then make peace. I didn't get iron, however, so I'll have to try again later.

In 1305 the Chinese (the most powerful AI) attack me, trying to get my fur city. They lose out by 1 hp. I ally the Celts and the Hittites against them, and ignore them. The Celts are the second most powerful AI, so this works out really well for me. Their research goes down the tubes. I stay at war with them for no cost until I enter the IA.

In 1310 I declare on the Dutch, who are down to 3 cities in really nice lands. In 5 turns they are gone and I have the great wall and the colossus. Amsterdam isn't even horribly corrupt, so the colossus actually brings in some cash for me.

I get several elite wins but no great leaders, and I get rid of a bunch of ancient cavalry and crusaders, which helps my bottom line. (They do quite well against the spearmen and longbows, so I actually got some use out of them besides disbanding them for shields, which I did a little of.)

Culture:
Bergen is my 20K city. After finishing the statue of zeus, I start the forbidden palace, not realizing that I could build a cathedral. Before the FP finishes, I learn chivalry, and switch to knights templar. After it finishes I rush the cathedral. Then I build the Sistine Chapel, rush a university, sneak in the FP after missing out on Copernicus' observatory, and build Bachs. The turn before I build Bach's, I trade music theory around for lots of money. I'm researching towards the IA as fast as possible, so that I can get railroads and factories, but I can trade physics for democracy and free artistry, so I build Shakespeare's theater next. I miss Newton's university so I turn it into a prebuild to stretch out for universal sufferage. I'm not going to win early, but I think I can hit 20K before losing, since the Celts and Chinese have started warring.

 

[Paul#42]

370 bc reached Middle Ages!!

Damn, I need someone to declare on Babylon. They are running away... they have feudalism already, but no republic and literature.

310 bc founded birka in the desert.

250 bc suicide galey meets china. way behind in tech.

210 bc met the hittites. Just dutch are missing.
finally brought fresh water to the desert...

130 bc researched feudalism. Now Engineering.
finally met the dutch. Way behind, too.
Trondheim goes for GL. More culture than lighthouse.
founded Aarhus near the whale in the north.
the other civs got all the iron...

50 bc finally the Babs offer gpr. 25gpr + 140g for republic. Gone.
All others civs together own 8 pieces of gold

30 ad 8 towns (8,6,6,5,3,2,2,1). 5 workers, 2 archers, 1 spear.
nearly finished GL (5 turns.) Won't stop researching.

70 ad Netherlands and Hittites against Babylon! Yes!
Babylon demands 35g. As they owe me 14x25g, I give in. They will pay later!

130 ad build great library. No unknown techs.

190 ad founded starvanger next to the gems in the very north
sold engineering to celts for 30gpr+117g. to Hittites for 26gpr-12g.

280 ad researched engineering. Let's build berserkers!!! Hm... For whom?!?

350 ad researched monotheism. Now theology and build the chapel. Culture!!!

390 ad Odense founded on small island.

410 ad Trondheim builds statue of Zeus. GA triggered.

420 ad researched theology. Now education in 6 turns at 90%.
Traded invention to Celts for 31gpr+40g, to dutch for 12gpr+28g, to hittites for rop, 8gpr.
Wanted to start some quarrels. But nobody wants to ally against any other civ.
Even not against the zulus, who have just one city. (Later found out, they want me to be already at war with the other civ - still learning )
So it's just wars between dutch and babylon and zulu against hittites.
It's all peace and harmony...

450 ad Hareid founded - no more space. Time to conquer the world...

C3C crashed after pressing <F4> in scientific advisor screen. Reloaded from autosave

470 ad Researched education. GL did not bring me one single tech...
Now astronomy in 6 turns (90%)

530 ad Researched astronomy. Now Navigation in 6 turns (90%)

580 ad hittites declare on Babylon!! Finally

590 ad researched navigation. Magellan will be built in Bergen in 6 turns.
now researching banking in 5 turns (90%) - without GA!

600 ad first berserk built! Let's rule the world.

610 ad traded education to hittites for furs, iron, wm, 33gpr, 31g.
to Celts for 12gpr, 28g, wm.

With better knowledge of the world, we decide to settle on the NE-side of the ring.
Near the chinese it's convenient, they lack of culture.
Maybe I can finsh them before they get their riders.

640 ad traded wine from Celts for ivory, 4gpr
traded dyes from chinese for ivory, 4gpr
luxury 0%!!

650 ad researched banking - now economics in 6 turns (100%!)

670 ad traded astronomie to Celts for Chivalry, wm, 74gpr, 136g.

680 ad per caravel chain the first units visit the other continent.

regarding culture and power nd our treaties, the americans should be our first victim.

710 ad economy researched.
copernicus build in Trondheim. 39 culture and 162 science points per turn there!
acquire gunpowder for astronomy and 60g from the chinese.
No Saltpeter on my island. Quel surprise...
now chemistry in 5 turns.
declared on americans. 2 berserks slay 2 spears in San Francisco, capturing it.
Way to go, berserks!!
Don't want to give away banking and navigation...

730 ad 2 berserks capture seattle. those were two sites far away from the american area.

760 ad research chemistry. Now physics in 5 turns (100%)
Chinese got chivalry. That's a tough one...

780 ad founded Molde on the other continent.

810 ad researched phisics, now ToG.
One Berserk captures Boston in two turns . Make peace for free.
Next victim is Babylon.

840 ad declare on Babylon. Three Berserks capture Samarra next to Salpeter.

870 ad traded Chemistry to Hittites for Printing Press, 136g, 85gpr, furs and wm.
to Celts for Wine and 6gpr. to Chinese for 5gpr, 10g.

910 ad Berserks capture Babylonian Nippur with horses and incense.

970 ad capture Babylon and Eridu. Captured Sun Tzu and sold nearly all baracks on my home continent, before I realized, it doesn't work there

 

[DJMGator13]

I seemed to have a slightly different game then most people. The Hittites were a power on the Pangaea landmass and eliminated both the Dutch and Babylon. I entered the MA in 390BC (sorry no AA spoiler not much to describe).

I ended up self-researching almost all the Middle Age techs to reach Navigation before starting my conquest of the Pangaea, which only took 400 years (56 turns after I learned Navigation).

My problem was it took me to about 1000AD to learn Navigation. So I ended with a 1410AD conquest. I was amazed at the slower tech pace in my game considering I started no phony wars and had contact with all civs by 1000BC. I lost out on the Republic slingshot. I was able to research PHIL first but I skipped COL due to other civs having WRIT, so I had to spend 50 turns self-researching Republic.

Once I got Navigation, my military was ready to roll and my Golden Age allowed me to research to MT rather quickly, then I shut off research. Here is a look at my military in 1000AD.

After eliminating the Hittites around 1300AD , I had a little fun. I signed ROPs with the remaining 4 civs then I declared on the Celts who had a city south of the Zulus. I then signed an MA with the Zulus versus the Celts and signed another MA with America versus the Celts. Then after 2 turns of this war I ROP raped the Zulus and captured 6 of their 8 cities on the first turn, I grabbed the 7th city the next turn. The only city I did not grab was the one NE of China. I then did a similar thing to America claiming 5 of their 7 cities on the first turn; I grabbed the 6th city two turns later and again left them with only a single city NE of China. The Celtic campaign lasted from 1355AD to 1375AD. Amazingly after 2 ROP rapes I was able to renew my ROP with China because I had gotten them to MA with me against America’s last city and I threw in some luxes. After healing and positioning my troops I capture 6 of China’s 11 cities in 1390AD.

Overall a fun game and a very enjoyable map.

 

[Dynamic]

I entered the MA in 390BC...
My problem was it took me to about 1000AD to learn Navigation. So I ended with a 1410AD conquest. I was amazed at the slower tech pace in my game considering I started no phony wars and had contact with all civs by 1000BC. I lost out on the Republic slingshot. I was able to research PHIL first but I skipped COL due to other civs having WRIT, so I had to spend 50 turns self-researching Republic.

Your MA start time is normal for this game. But it's true you discovered Navigation too late. I think the several factors have effect on it:

1) Missing Republic slingshot. Your economy was not good during additional ~1000 years and cities growth were slower then with Republic (if you stayed in Despotism, not Monarchy).

2) You have only 10 cities on starting landmass + small island. Vikings civilization may have more coastal cities because they have cheap harbors. Coastal tiles don't give you shield (before Offshore Platform) but give many commerce.

3) You had many units and must pay for its. So you must make your science slower for increasing cash.