Could ireland be added to the game

[bestbrian]

Your reasoning is absurd, it's a question of degree. Vikings had such a minor impact on Canadian culture that it's non-existant. The Irish on the other hand have been largely defined by the Celtic culture. Their language, their art, their music, their very identity has very strong ties to the Celts. The same can't be said for any of the other examples that you've stated.

Heck, Canadians haven't had much of an impact on Canadian culture.

 

[g.neuman]

Sorry man, I don't quite follow the logic here. By this thinking we could make the assumption that because the Norsemen landed on the Newfoundland coast a long time ago, Ragnar could represent Canada in the game? Or that because the Norse occupied England for a time he could represent England as well. There had to vbe some culture transfer there for sure. Had to be. And Lincoln could stand in for Sitting Bull too because the Americans were responsible for the corruption and influence of aboriginal culture by settling in the west. By extension Sitting Bull can be replaced by any American leader because he lived in the States and his culture and roots were transformed and influenced by contact with that leader's people. Or if we go further back it was actually the Europeans because they settled in America and eventually caused the influence. I'll bet we could even say it was the Celts that did it if we go back far enough. Therefore Brennus represents the Sioux. Am I getting this right?

No. You're not even close to getting it right. All you've done here is present an exceptionally weak argumentum ad absurdum.

The Celts did not merely "land on" Ireland. They did not merely "occupy" Ireland. They dod not merely "transform and influence" Ireland. Modern-day Irish culture directly dervies from Celtic culture, every bit as much is American culture derives from Anglo culture or Brazilian culture derives from Portuguese culture. The link between the Celts and the Irish is far, far stronger than the link between the Norse and the Canadians or any of the other absurd comparisons you made.

Still, it is fair for an Irish person to say that they don't feel well-represented by the Celts. After all, as an American, I wouldn't feel well-represented by the English despite the fact that 1) they're our parent culture, and 2) I like them quite a bit. However, modern America has become a large enough player on the world stage to merit inclusion in the game, while modern Ireland has not. Irish players who want to play as their native country will have to either make do with their parent culture (the Celts) despite the fact that it's an imperfect representation, or find a mod that does a better job of it. End of argument.

One solution to all of this that the Civ V devs might want to consider is restricting civilizations to thier appropriate starting periods. Want to play America? You need a renaissance or later start. Want to play the Celts? You need a Mideval or earlier start. I would find such a system historically satisfying, and it would serve to silence the "but America is too young to be a civ" whining once and for all.


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[djvandrake]

It was much more than just part of their territory, it was the last bastion of Celtic civilization. The Romans had overrun their empire almost everywhere else but it was allowed to flourish and evolve in Ireland, and still does so today. Gaelic was originally a Celtic language, your music evolved from Celtic forms, your art did as well. The Celts did much more than just provide a few influences to your culture, it defined it.

Allowed to flourish? How exactly? The only reason the Romans didn't fully capture all of the British Isles and Ireland was lack of resources / internal struggles / conflicts elsewhere. The time period that Boudica lived in saw plenty of turmoil inside the Roman empire as various factions struggled with another for influence under the crushing element of downright incompetence (Nero was emperor when Boudica led her famous revolt). Age old story for about any period of that era really, the Romans fought themselves more than exteranl foes.

I'd also point out that the culture that exists today that is identified as Celtic has a great deal to do with the Norse influences that came to modern day Ireland by way of the conquests / settlements made there circa 900-1000 a.d. Thus, to say that Brennus is Celtic is a jump that's been made by modern perception that completely ignores the entire body of evidence of historical influences. The Gaulic Celts (of which Brennus was the assocaited leader) likely had very little in common with what we today associate as the true Celtic culture.

It doesn't matter if they were Irish or not, they represent your Celtic background and roots.

Again only in modern perception. And the culture that exists today has been imposed on those figures without regard to historical accuracy. The Cisalpine Gauls that were the remnants of what Brennus may have led have more in common with the Barbarians in the game then the Celtic culture.

 

[bestbrian]

How about a build your own Civ option? A blank Civ that you can Name, upload a photo for the leaderhead, and pick two traits. Then pick a UU and UB, or have an option for Build Your Own.

 

[mechaerik]

I'd bet you could find an Irish Civ somewhere in the downloads database or over in the Creation and Customization forum. People beg for their home countries to be represented if they aren't already--you probably just saw some Canadian, Mexican, or Australian posters.

Completely true. Also, i doubt Ireland will be added to civ for the reasons already stated. Most people think that their home countries deserve to be in game. But seeing as how there are civs that do deserve to be in game (Ashanti comes to mind, as does Austria). Not bashing you, just saying some facts. Better to just mod it in yourself or find one in the db.

P.S. i'm one of those mexican posters, which is probably why mexico is a civ in my mod.

 

[Willem]

Allowed to flourish? How exactly? The only reason the Romans didn't fully capture all of the British Isles and Ireland was lack of resources / internal struggles / conflicts elsewhere. The time period that Boudica lived in saw plenty of turmoil inside the Roman empire as various factions struggled with another for influence under the crushing element of downright incompetence (Nero was emperor when Boudica led her famous revolt). Age old story for about any period of that era really, the Romans fought themselves more than exteranl foes.

Geez, do I have to define every single word I post? When I say "allow", I'm not trying to imply that they were given permission by the Romans to pursue their culture in relative isolation. The Romans tried to invade Ireland, they failed. The fact remains that Ireland was the last area where the Celtic civilization survived after the Roman conquests.

I'd also point out that the culture that exists today that is identified as Celtic has a great deal to do with the Norse influences that came to modern day Ireland by way of the conquests / settlements made there circa 900-1000 a.d. Thus, to say that Brennus is Celtic is a jump that's been made by modern perception that completely ignores the entire body of evidence of historical influences. The Gaulic Celts (of which Brennus was the assocaited leader) likely had very little in common with what we today associate as the true Celtic culture.

There's no such thing as a pure culture in today's world. But there's no denying that current Irish culture owes a great deal to their Celtic past. Far more than it does to any Nordic influences that may have crept into the culture.

 

[g.neuman]

How about a build your own Civ option? A blank Civ that you can Name, upload a photo for the leaderhead, and pick two traits. Then pick a UU and UB, or have an option for Build Your Own.

I think this is a fantastic idea - I was really hoping that such a feature would be part of the BtS expansion. Alas, not.

My typical routine is to play Stalin because I like his traits and UU. But I change the civ name and the leader name to those from some obscure, long-vanished European culture (e.g., the Lusatians). This is a clumsy work-around, espcially considering that I don't particularly care for the UB or photo.

A robust create-your-own civ feature would be most welcome.


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[Zylornck Davis]

No. You're not even close to getting it right. All you've done here is present an exceptionally weak argumentum ad absurdum.

Sarcasm, man, sarcasm. I was deliberately being ridiculous to point out an absurdity in the post I referenced.

Still, it is fair for an Irish person to say that they don't feel well-represented by the Celts.

I'm pretty sure that was the point Lemon was trying to make. She said that she didn't think that her country was properly represented by the two Celtic leaders because they weren't Irish. The absurdity I was mocking was the blanket statement made to someone born and raised in Ireland that she should accept the representation of those people, who never even led her country at any time as far as we know. You don't think someone who is very proud of her heritage might just be insulted by this? Guess again. I've never been to Ireland, so I'm no expert, but I've listened to her talk at length about living there, it's politics and it;s perception in the world. Gee, some Irish people have issues. I wonder why? Because as a nation and a culture they haven't been treated all that good in the past. Anybody with even rudimentary schooling knows that Irish culture has deep Celtic roots. I'm perfectly aware of that fact and I'm not gonna argue it. There\s Celtic based crap all over our house so I guess Lemon's aware of it too.

So if anybody's upset by the argumentum ad absurdum, well sorry, but I get a little pissed when somebody insults my room mate and I almost have to turn the garden hose on her to get her to settle down.

 

[Willem]

She said that she didn't think that her country was properly represented by the two Celtic leaders because they weren't Irish.

The point is that not every modern nation in the world can be included in the game, nor should they. I'm pretty sure that people from Finland or Sweden don't feel that the Vikings are representative of their modern society either. But they can at least understand how they relate to their cultural roots and get a sense that their region is included. Having both the Celts and the Irish would be just like having the Angles and Saxons as well as the English in the game. It would be pointless and totally unnecessary. If an Irish person can't relate to the Celts as representative of their culture, then maybe they should pick up a few history books and get back in touch with their heritage.

 

[6K Man]

Or, maybe they should be given the benefit of the doubt, since it's likely that a member of a particular culture knows more about it than a nonmember does.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The point is that not every modern nation in the world can be included in the game, nor should they.

I agree with you completely. Ireland should not be in the game because of the reasons above. I even said that myself.

I'm pretty sure that people from Finland or Sweden don't feel that the Vikings are representative of their modern society either. But they can at least understand how they relate to their cultural roots and get a sense that their region is included.

I understand my cultural roots very well, and I completely agree that much of our current culture is directly owed to the Celts. That fact is not in dispute.

If an Irish person can't relate to the Celts as representative of their culture, then maybe they should pick up a few history books and get back in touch with their heritage.

It isn't that I can't relate, or frankly, even care about who represents whom in the game. What irritates me is your "Suck it up, Princess." attitude about this. It sounds to me like I'm not supposed to have an opinion about my own heritage, and how I view my own nationality. Where I grew up, national pride is a big thing. Because of that, I said that I didn't feel properly represented. That I disagree with the association of Ireland and Boudica. That was all. It's just my opinion, and it's mine to have. I don't mind if you disagree one bit. But I do mind when you address me like my opinion is invalid, worthless, and irrelevant. That I'm stupid, and I should just shut up about the whole thing. That you know better than I do about how I should feel about something that relates to my perception of who I am. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it really comes across that way. I won't be addressed that way in real life, and I won't be addressed like that online either.

This argument is pointless and unwinnable by either of us, so let's just put this one to bed, shall we? Let's move on to something more positive before this thread gets shut down.

 

[Willem]

Maybe that's not what you meant, but it really comes across that way.

Well it certainly isn't what I meant, and I apologize if you felt that I was. If this were a discussion about Canada being in the game I'd probably be just as zealous in my arguments as to why it shouldn't be. Unfortunately my arguments have been distorted by the other people who have jumped into the discussion. I have this tendency of becoming dogmatic when I'm put on the defensive and I in no way meant any sort of personal attack.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Well it certainly isn't what I meant, and I apologize if you felt that I was. If this were a discussion about Canada being in the game I'd probably be just as zealous in my arguments as to why it shouldn't be. Unfortunately my arguments have been distorted by the other people who have jumped into the discussion. I have this tendency of becoming dogmatic when I'm put on the defensive and I in no way meant any sort of personal attack.

In that case Willem, let's just forget about this silliness, and put it behind us, k?

And thank you.

 

[brianshapiro]

People overthink this. All the cultures chosen in the game have been major actors on the stage of world history somehow.That usually involves having some form of empire with a large sphere of influence.

Thats why Nordic countries are represented by Vikings, because the Viking civilization was a larger player in history than the modern country Sweden. Sweden was an important player within the context of modern European history, but in the larger context of history it wasn't.

Western religions come from the Hebrews, which makes them important, but the Hebrews were a tiny band of peoples that were isolated and kept to themselves, had no sphere of influence, and had no leaders who were actors on the world stage.

The US while it has no empire in the traditional sense has been said to have an 'open empire' versus 'closed empire' because of its influence through commerce and media.

One could argue that having an empire and sphere of influence is what actually defines the word *civilization* as we're using it. It's not simply an 'important culture' but some type of rule of culture

 

[bestbrian]

Could Cathy Ireland be in the game?

 

[zyphyr]

, the American accent is actually closer to the English accent of the 1600's than current "English-English" accents

There is no such thing as "the American accent". Yes, it is true that we do have one local accent that is thought to be very close to the most common accent from 1600s England. IIRC it is the 'Boston' accent, though my memory on that could be faulty and my old linguistics books are buried in a box somewhere.

 

[The_Big_Con]

The closest American accent to colonial England is American Southern, actually. We still say reckon, yonder, and britches (breeches), just like Shakespeare did! Yet somehow people think of our accent as being one of the least intelligent in the US.

I'm 100% against Ireland as a Civ. Ireland never had an empire ... has that whole little island ever even been united under one ruler? I mean, besides being part of the British empire? The Irish never built anything that could be considered a Wonder of the World. I'm having a hard time thinking of what Civ calls Great People from Ireland -- keeping in mind that St. Patrick was British. I'll give them a Great Artist or two: Joyce and Yeats. Other than that, I can't imagine why anyone would consider Ireland one of history's great civilizations, unless he's an ethnocentric Irishman.

AFTER they add Poland, Italy, Maori, Denmark, Polynesian, Magyar, the Iroquois, the Sioux, the Carib, Mexico, Australia, Afghanistan, and Brazil, THEN maybe it would be appropriate to stick Ireland in.

 

[Xellos-_^]

The closest American accent to colonial England is American Southern, actually. We still say reckon, yonder, and britches (breeches), just like Shakespeare did! Yet somehow people think of our accent as being one of the least intelligent in the US.

I'm 100% against Ireland as a Civ. Ireland never had an empire ... has that whole little island ever even been united under one ruler? I mean, besides being part of the British empire? The Irish never built anything that could be considered a Wonder of the World. I'm having a hard time thinking of what Civ calls Great People from Ireland -- keeping in mind that St. Patrick was British. I'll give them a Great Artist or two: Joyce and Yeats. Other than that, I can't imagine why anyone would consider Ireland one of history's great civilizations, unless he's an ethnocentric Irishman.

AFTER they add Poland, Italy, Maori, Denmark, Polynesian, Magyar, the Iroquois, the Sioux, the Carib, Mexico, Australia, Afghanistan, and Brazil, THEN maybe it would be appropriate to stick Ireland in.

there is also a whole host of civies in the middle east area that the whole world didn't think exist till they discover oil there.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

AFTER they add Poland, Italy, Maori, Denmark, Polynesian, Magyar, the Iroquois, the Sioux, the Carib, Mexico, Australia, Afghanistan, and Brazil, THEN maybe it would be appropriate to stick Ireland in.

uh, weren't some of the Caribs cannibals?

 

[Xellos-_^]

uh, weren't some of the Caribs cannibals?

not that i remember but the only cannibals i remember were in the pacific islands and they ate captain cook.