Could ireland be added to the game

[6K Man]

How the heck are America, Canada, and the UK so similar as to be considered the same culture? Some differences for you.

I was on board and ready to hear your argument on how their cultures are different... but all you talked about is geography and politics . It isn't a cultural difference that what one country calls provinces, the others call states or counties.

In terms of cultural similarities:

Same primary language (English)
Primarily christian/protestant religious heritage
Market-based economies/consumer culture
Written literary tradition
Common law tradition
Limited male suffrage for last 200 years or since founded; moved to full male and female suffrage relatively concurrently
No formal caste system
Separation of church and state (de facto if not de jure)
Relatively affluent societies (property ownership common, most families have disposable income)
Tradition of a free press
Organized mass media (radio, TV, internet) and mass access to these media
etc.

Now ask how many countries in Asia, Africa, and South America share all or most of those cultural traits.

Most of it's legal residents (So those half-naked guys don't count unless they got citizenship somehow) probably ether speak English, Scotish, or a little Irish (For Northern Ireland). I could be wrong on that one.

I'll leave that one for someone else.

 

[Willem]

I don't like America being in the game either (even though I'm American) but I think they have always been included because of sales and the US being the country it was made in. If it were made in Laos that country would be in the game.

It would be extremely foolish to deny the contributions that America has made in the modern world. Love them or hate them, they've exerted a great deal of influence on world events and in how things are done these days. In a short period of time they've developed a culture that's unique to them and has had an impact all over the world. For that reason alone they deserve to be in the games.

What have the Irish done in comparison, that can't be included in the blanket Celt civilization? Yes they helped during the Dark Ages but that's about as far as their contribution goes.

 

[binhthuy71]

If being included in Civ was dependent on a given civilization's contributions or its impact on world history then the inclusion of the Aztecs, the Inca, the Maya and the Native Americans is pretty hard to justify. Three are in the game because they simply existed in their respective parts of the world. The fourth was added by acclaim. That's not a criticism of those cultures, each was worthy and successful for hundreds of years. They were also the same at the end of those hundreds of years as they were at the beginning.

 

[Willem]

If being included in Civ was dependent on a given civilization's contributions or its impact on world history then the inclusion of the Aztecs, the Inca, the Maya and the Native Americans is pretty hard to justify. Three are in the game because they simply existed in their respective parts of the world. The fourth was added by acclaim. That's not a criticism of those cultures, each was worthy and successful for hundreds of years. They were also the same at the end of those hundreds of years as they were at the beginning.

They may not have had an impact on the world, but they did have a huge one in their respective geographical regions. Same thing with the Khmer, the Koreans and the African civs. And I don't agree that the Native Americans should be in the game, not as just a blanket civilization.

 

[kooboo]

That would be a historically satisfying way to add them to the game.

Other examples: Poland as a kingdom for the German empire, Ukraine as a kingdom for the Russian Empire, Tibet as a kingdom for the Chinese empire, Canada as a kingdom for the American empire, etc.

That made my day.
Completely different cultures, many of which had their own countries/kingdoms, dynasties of kings for centuries sprouting out of countries which has conquered them in some period of history would be "historically satisfying"...

I think massess of players would prefer not see their country in the game at all rather than their country appearing as "kingdom of existing empire". Especialy the examples you gave are absolutely absurd and would mostly offend their respective citizens.

There are some many countries missing in Civilization, which had it's impact on how the history went (Hungary, Poland, Sweden for example), while there are some "empires" in game which never formed government and lived mostly in tribe society even up to XIX century.

 

[Molybdeus]

I don't think you quite understood what I was suggested. Early in the game, barbarian cities are added in areas where civs haven't settled. With this modification, a third of the cities would be new kingdoms. Which kingdom would be determined by the closest civ. This doesn't mean that Poland would be somehow subservient to Germany, it just provides some historical play. IE, Poland being next to Germany.

It would be extremely foolish to deny the contributions that America has made in the modern world. Love them or hate them, they've exerted a great deal of influence on world events and in how things are done these days.

I'm not unaware of the achievements of my fellow Americans. (The computer I'm writing this on, the internet it's being posted on, etc.) But the US is a state, not a civilization.

 

[AlphaShard]

You know I've been wanting to ask for awhile but why is Ethopia in the game?

How is America not a Civilization?

I checked with dictionary.com and got this defintion from it.

–noun
1. an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2. those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4. the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5. cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.
6. cities or populated areas in general, as opposed to unpopulated or wilderness areas: The plane crashed in the jungle, hundreds of miles from civilization.
7. modern comforts and conveniences, as made possible by science and technology: After a week in the woods, without television or even running water, the campers looked forward to civilization again.

Personally I feel we do get all 7 there.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I'm sure Celts from Gaul would have said that they are quite different from Irish Celts, just as Americans and Englishmen see themselves as quite different. To someone from, say, Ghana or Sri Lanka, they seem quite the same.

I suspect that your impression of the differences between Americans and Englishmen stems from the fact that you are Canadian. Canada is a country that sees itself as distinct from the USA and UK, but the three are pretty much the same culture if you ask someone from Africa or Asia.

I would completely agree. When I first moved to Canada, I used to get annoyed at the people that I talked to lumping my heritage in with the English and Scottish. But it's like you say, from a distance, there's not much difference in those cultures.

I gave up trying to correct people long ago. I just accept that people think we're all from the UK and it's part of England. Oh well, who cares? I know better.

But I know some boys back home in Dublin that'll mash your face for making that mistake.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Whatever the specifics of an Ireland Civ nation, I would certainly play it. One gets tired of the usual suspects; it definitely would have to have something new though, something distinctive. Even if that something's ahistorical.

 

[Stoney the I]

Originally Posted by Molybdeus
I don't like America being in the game either (even though I'm American) but I think they have always been included because of sales and the US being the country it was made in. If it were made in Laos that country would be in the game.

I made the exact same post in another thread about which civ shouldnt be in civilization (well except about being american). You just made my day sir
I couldnt agree more.

and on the topic: I love ireland, been there twice, loved the people and culture and beer, hated the weather. (dutch weather sucks, so it kinda blows if you are on holiday and the weather STILL sucks). But a civ to include in civilization?

nah. to little impact during its history imho.

 

[K.K.]

I am not american but I must say it is the strongest geopolitical player of modern days, and deserves to be in the game with it's three leaders. I'm from a country not represented in the game (Finland is kind of represented by the Vikings, but that's like Celts and Ireland) but I don't think we deserve to be there, either, even though there are many civilizations in the game that in my opinion would not deserve to be there either.

Looking at Nordic countries I think Finland deserves to be in Civ for decimating the Red Army during the Winter War. Sweden and Denmark too for being previous superpowers with great influence on the European Continent. However, if Norway and Iceland were Civs they should start the game as vassals. The Norwegian UU should then be the Peasant Warrior, which tranforms into a worker when attacked and, in stacks, has a 5%/round chance of killing own higher ranking units.

 

[Camikaze]

Looking at Nordic countries I think Finland deserves to be in Civ for decimating the Red Army during the Winter War. Sweden and Denmark too for being previous superpowers with great influence on the European Continent. However, if Norway and Iceland were Civs they should start the game as vassals. The Norwegian UU should then be the Peasant Warrior, which tranforms into a worker when attacked and, in stacks, has a 5%/round chance of killing own higher ranking units.

I don't quite think beating back one invasion, by an incompetent power, that was itself almost decimated a few years later, warrants inclusion in the game. Although Sweden, I would be more incline to agree with. But these have a place in the queue of civs that could make it into Civ5, and they aren't all that high up it.

To be realistic, I think that Civ 5 will have pretty much the same original civs as Civ 4, maybe less the Malinese, plus the Ethiopians, or something, and hopefully maybe a few more to start with.

 

[6K Man]

You know I've been wanting to ask for awhile but why is Ethopia in the game?

How is America not a Civilization?

I checked with dictionary.com and got this defintion from it.



Personally I feel we do get all 7 there.

So does every first-world nation. That casts the net pretty wide.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

I gave up trying to correct people long ago. I just accept that people think we're all from the UK and it's part of England. Oh well, who cares? I know better.

But I know some boys back home in Dublin that'll mash your face for making that mistake.

My Grandfather's ancestor's came from Galway....and he would have smashed your face if you made that mistake too.

Lemon, I didn't recognize you with the dark hair, it looks good!

 

[Lemon Merchant]

and on the topic: I love ireland, been there twice, loved the people and culture and beer, hated the weather. (dutch weather sucks, so it kinda blows if you are on holiday and the weather STILL sucks). But a civ to include in civilization?

nah. to little impact during its history imho.

Exactly! This was the original argument.

Most of the Civs in the game are included because they made either a large contribution to history, or their culture is or was significant enough for the civilization to be at least well known or discussed in western history books. The game is largely made for the western world, and as such, most of us know who the Aztecs, and Mayans were. Who Sitting Bull was. We know where Ankor Wat is. Most of us have at least some knowledge of most of the Civs in the game. Maybe even just that we've heard of them. That's why they are there, IMHO.

So not everyone's favorite country or Civ can be in the game. I suppose that Firaxis had to put a cap on it somehow, or it just would have been silly. I'm just guessing here, but it looks like what they did was choose some very historically significant/politically powerful civilizations, and then they threw in some minor ones to give the game a more "Worldly" flavor. The minor civs are still reasonably well known to someone educated in the western world, but they had to leave some out. Redundancy, space considerations, who knows?

Ireland isn't in the game because we are slightly redundant, and haven't really been culturaly significant enough to warrant inclusion. Boo hoo. Poland, the Czech Republic, Zambia, Morrocco, and the Phillipines all suffered the same fate. They just didn't leave a mark on the world big enough, or weren't one of the lucky ones that Firaxis chose for the world flavor thing. You can't please everyone.

And I'm sorry Willem, but taking some red headed woman from East Anglia, or a Gaul who mostly spent his time in southern Europe, and throwing some Irish sounding music behind them, does not adequately represent my home in any respect as far as I am concerned. Just because the Celts made Ireland part of their territory long ago, doesn't mean that they should represent Ireland. I won't dispute that there are Celtic influences in Irish culture, but it's like saying that Mexico is represented by the Mayans. Sure, they lived there at one time, but I sure didn't meet any in February when I was there. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern Mexican who would consider his/her country properly represented by Pacal. Boudica is definitely not Irish AFAIK. There are some sources that even say she was originally from a part of Wales - which is also not Ireland. Everything I could find on Brennus does not mention Ireland, unless I've been looking up the wrong Brennus. So, exactly how do these two represent my home town?

 

[Willem]

Just because the Celts made Ireland part of their territory long ago, doesn't mean that they should represent Ireland. I won't dispute that there are Celtic influences in Irish culture, but it's like saying that Mexico is represented by the Mayans.

It was much more than just part of their territory, it was the last bastion of Celtic civilization. The Romans had overrun their empire almost everywhere else but it was allowed to flourish and evolve in Ireland, and still does so today. Gaelic was originally a Celtic language, your music evolved from Celtic forms, your art did as well. The Celts did much more than just provide a few influences to your culture, it defined it.

Boudica is definitely not Irish AFAIK. There are some sources that even say she was originally from a part of Wales - which is also not Ireland. Everything I could find on Brennus does not mention Ireland, unless I've been looking up the wrong Brennus. So, exactly how do these two represent my home town?

It doesn't matter if they were Irish or not, they represent your Celtic background and roots.

 

[Zylornck Davis]

It doesn't matter if they were Irish or not, they represent your Celtic background and roots.

Wha?? How can you represent someone's country, backgound, and roots, if you aren't even a citzen or national of that country?

Sorry man, I don't quite follow the logic here. By this thinking we could make the assumption that because the Norsemen landed on the Newfoundland coast a long time ago, Ragnar could represent Canada in the game? Or that because the Norse occupied England for a time he could represent England as well. There had to vbe some culture transfer there for sure. Had to be. And Lincoln could stand in for Sitting Bull too because the Americans were responsible for the corruption and influence of aboriginal culture by settling in the west. By extension Sitting Bull can be replaced by any American leader because he lived in the States and his culture and roots were transformed and influenced by contact with that leader's people. Or if we go further back it was actually the Europeans because they settled in America and eventually caused the influence. I'll bet we could even say it was the Celts that did it if we go back far enough. Therefore Brennus represents the Sioux. Am I getting this right?

 

[Hive Watch]

I already feel uncomfortable that the Celts have 2 leaders while some civs that are definitely more important like Spain, Arabia, and Japan only have 1, they better not add yet another Celtic leader and civ, mods are fine though.

And I agree with William, few Celtic leaders should be enough to represent all Celtic peoples IN GAME, I don't think we want some1 for Ireland, another for Scotland, and more for all the different tribes, 1 Viking leader is enough for Scandinavia, and we don't want 1 leader representing every state in America, even when all 3 of them don't have a culture connection with say Alaska or Hawaii

 

[Willem]

By this thinking we could make the assumption that because the Norsemen landed on the Newfoundland coast a long time ago, Ragnar could represent Canada in the game?

Your reasoning is absurd, it's a question of degree. Vikings had such a minor impact on Canadian culture that it's non-existant. The Irish on the other hand have been largely defined by the Celtic culture. Their language, their art, their music, their very identity has very strong ties to the Celts. The same can't be said for any of the other examples that you've stated.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

For most of them, no fun at all.

Except the Netherlands... Amsterdam ftw! I miss it...