Council Votes?

[chiefpaco]

Currently, we use Council Votes to resolve certain issues and I think this is quite undemocratic. Here is a partial list I compiled from the Constitution (current copy here: The Constitution of Phoenatica)

- Over-riding Turn Instructions from the Turn Instructions thread
- Ammending the Code of Standards
- Mobilization
- Spot votes in chat

I'd prefer seeing all decisions have total citizen involvement - not because the Council is not capable, nor are they out to screw the citizens. I prefer having everything we do include everyone in some way. I feel if there is anything in this game that a select few can do or decide, we are not truly democratic.

I do not know why the leaders get to decide such issues. For example, I elect the Military Advisor to lead our Military, not to represent the population in Constitutional changes. Why does each Advisor's vote get to count in such issues while other citizens' votes do not?

For what reason do we need to exclude the non-governmental citizens in all such matters? I'd like to push for an amendment, but even this might be difficult, because it would require a Council vote to approve.

 

[Ehecatl Atzin]

hehehe, quite ironic at the end

I think it happends beacuse democracy is fragile and difficult to handle acurretly. I can honestly say there is no true, real democracy in the world, in any country. Exactly beacuse the non-governmental citizens don't get to participate in every decision the elected oficials make.
If we'd ask everybody what to do on every single decision that endend up on the Council's lap, then what would the council be there for? It would tend to a better democracy, but it would slow down the game quite a bit. Immagine creating a poll on every situation we now make an on the spot vote.
The council is there to push for the interests of the people that choose them, that's as near a a democracy we can have for now, well, at least that's what I think

Ehecatl Atzin

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin
hehehe, quite ironic at the end

I think it happends beacuse democracy is fragile and difficult to handle acurretly. I can honestly say there is no true, real democracy in the world, in any country. Exactly beacuse the non-governmental citizens don't get to participate in every decision the elected oficials make.
If we'd ask everybody what to do on every single decision that endend up on the Council's lap, then what would the council be there for? It would tend to a better democracy, but it would slow down the game quite a bit. Immagine creating a poll on every situation we now make an on the spot vote.
The council is there to push for the interests of the people that choose them, that's as near a a democracy we can have for now, well, at least that's what I think

Ehecatl Atzin

I concur. People voting on everything takes too much time.

 

[chiefpaco]

Hmmm, here's hoping this idea doesn't go down with all my other "popular" Constitutional change proposals.....

I see a couple objections based on the following:
a) Voting would take too much time and slow things down.
b) Council is there to address the issues of the citizens.

a)
CoL changes
I disagree to the extent that it may speed things up. Citizens already vote to pre-approve CoL changes. If the citizens have approved it, what is the need for council to ratify it? It is already the "will of the people". Why would it be reversed? Wouldn't an extra council vote also slow things down?

Mobilization, Turn Chat overrides, Governmental position, and Spot votes in chat
These polls could complete in an equal time to a citizen vote. I don't see how this slows things down. I also ask, why exclude the citizens in a Mobilization vote? Why exclude the citizens in turn chat decisions? Why would the citizens then come to the turn chats if their voice still does not matter? Why should 7 people have power in the game (those that show up at the turn chat, albeit) that others can not? In my opinion, every citizen should have equal say in this game and the Advisors are there only to lead the discussions and organize the "will of the people".

b)
In real life, I elect someone to represent my ideals. Whether they become the National Defense Minister or not, depends on how that party organizes themselves in parliament. In this game, I do not elect people who represent my ideals. I have no idea how a Cabinet member will vote on the next proposition. Therefore, I would not care for them to vote for me.

I am not calling for more citizen votes. My vision for this game is an inclusive one, not an exclusive one. I am questioning why some decisions that have to do with the average citizen exclude the average citizen. It ties in to my belief that exclusion in any way may drive the citizens away.

I'd like to amend the CoL to eliminate Council votes for these areas and replace them with a citizen vote. I think, after a proposal is made by any citizen, the Judiciary can make a judgement on the constitutionalism of it and post a poll for everyone to approve.

cp
Ressurecting the Power to the People campaign

 

[Cyc]

I dunno...you'd think chiefpaco just retired, or something. Obviously we forgot to get him his "Twenty Year Fishing Pole".
Really chief, I think they'll be OK without us for awhile.

Your covering ground that we covered earlier. Let me get back to you on this. It should be fun.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by chiefpaco
I'd like to push for an amendment, but even this might be difficult, because it would require a Council vote to approve.

Amendments require the approval of the Congress and Senate. The Council was removed from Constitutional (and Law) authority.

Council Votes are much faster. Yes, there are times when the full gamut is played out - long discussion, citizen polls, et al. There isn't always time for this entire process. When a fast and official change is needed the possible speed of the Council Vote is necessary.