Creative - why's everybody always picking on me?

[bassist2119]

Hey folks,
Still admit I'm in my apprenticeship to the game. I followed everyone's advice in avoiding the Creative trait like the plague, but as I just picked up Warlords and was in an experimenting mood anyway, figured I'd try it out. Played two games with Augustus, the first I played him completely wrong, as a warmongerer with good financing and border pops. The second I had more success and discovered that this trait ain't all that bad, quite effective when used correctly and Augustus has quite the utilities to use it.

First off, all Creative bashers should justify their stance by actually trying it out. I was with all of you before; it just looks crappy on paper. My stance did a 180 once I experimented with it.

What I discovered to be extremely effective was placing Drama much higher on the priority list. It's cheap compared to other techs of it's era, and if you have nothing better to do with a GA, he'll get it for you (though I consider this to be rather wasteful). With the exception of an early Praet rush, maintain peace and decent relations with neighbors. Prioritize who's going to give you the biggest trouble in the long run (most often an ally), make a settler and place him as close to a border city as allowed to (gaining a resource/removing one of his is also a top consideration). Make a theatre (one chop with leftovers) and then a monastary (just don't forget about the courthouse!). 7 culture builds quickly and within 10 turns or so, you're starting to take territory. Shortly thereafter, his city is yours, and without any war weariness, loss of troops, or negative relations.

Augustus is further a great (perfect?) leader to utilize this strategy with. That border city is unlikely to meet any hostilities when guarded with a Praet (10% cheaper than a longbow and arguably as effective, save hills cities). He can also afford the larger empire since he's organized. UB doesn't directly fit into this strategy, but it is massively effective in the core infrastructure (especially if you can make/take Parthenon; you're then 3/4 philosophical save the cheap Uni's)

After actually trying the trait out, I find it to be very effective, particularly for builders who NEED more land and resources after land grabbing time has expired (any wonder builders here?). I'm not sure how well this would work if the other trait isn't Org/Fin/Phi, but that's quite a few options right there.

Again, I'll emphasize that I'm still an apprentice to the game and have much to learn. Any further strat tips regarding the trait would be appreciated. And once again, I'd ask that Creative bashers wait on hitting 'Reply' and leaving a nasty note until after experimenting with it a bit - You may surprise yourself.

 

[mice]

Nice post. I'm going to try it out as an interesting alternative to warmongering.

 

[Mango]

Creative is best early in the game. Chop/whip settlers and use the +2 culture to cut off other civs from expanding. Creative lets you "block" expansion with your borders much faster, and if done effectively you can aquire large amounts of territory without pissing off your neighbors. I played a game with Catherine and found myself with about 25% of the pangaea after I filled out the territory I blocked off. Made my domination victory a little easier, and since I was such a culture whore I didn't have to put a lot of cities to fill it out.

It also makes it easier when you're setting up your initial cities after the capital. Normally you have to build either a theatre, library, monument or temple to expand your fat cross. This makes city positioning harder because you won't get certain resources right away. With creative you can, meaning the cities will become developed faster because that cow and horse resource that you needed to expand your borders to get now are there in 5 turns instead of say, 35-40.

 

[Tristan_C]

I played a game with Catherine and found myself with about 25% of the pangaea after I filled out the territory I blocked off. Made my domination victory a little easier, and since I was such a culture whore I didn't have to put a lot of cities to fill it out.

That's just nuts. Before AD (huge Pangea) my economy can barely handle 7 cities. How can you get any research done if you expand aggressively like that.

 

[bassist2119]

Creative is best early in the game. Chop/whip settlers and use the +2 culture to cut off other civs from expanding. Creative lets you "block" expansion with your borders much faster, and if done effectively you can aquire large amounts of territory without pissing off your neighbors. I played a game with Catherine and found myself with about 25% of the pangaea after I filled out the territory I blocked off. Made my domination victory a little easier, and since I was such a culture whore I didn't have to put a lot of cities to fill it out.

I'm curious about this though. I though that one of the main strats with creative is to have great relations with the target of your conquest, and the expansion block would imply closed borders. Though there are many other ways to establish a good relationship with a civ, my limited experience has been that early closed borders usually leads to an enemy.

It also makes it easier when you're setting up your initial cities after the capital. Normally you have to build either a theatre, library, monument or temple to expand your fat cross. This makes city positioning harder because you won't get certain resources right away. With creative you can, meaning the cities will become developed faster because that cow and horse resource that you needed to expand your borders to get now are there in 5 turns instead of say, 35-40.

A fine point, but it seems that the general mentality regarding this trait is that this is all it is good for, which is why most consider it weak. Though it's certainly one of, if not THE, key strengths of the trait, I'm trying to establish that there's much more to it. Current experience is proving that I'm not grasping at straws here.

Another note regarding Augustus/an idea to ponder... Many requests have been made to nerf the Praet and, indeed, he is rather overpowered. One of the popular suggestions is to bring his STR to 7 and reincorporate the city attack bonus. But remember CivIII's Roman Legionairre? Many people despised other UU's that were offensive based but added a defensive bonus, but noone seemed to mind the legionairre who did just that and noone seemed quite sure why. My guess is that they were trying to make the Praet an extension of this, and by adding to STR while losing city attack, you get just that; a two-way menace.

Sorry for getting off my own subject here

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I'm not saying that Creative sucks, but that there are better traits. I'll take aggressive to fight rather than Creative to pop borders. Industriuos gives cheap forges which I like better then threatres. Protective or Imperialistic gives just as much to land grabbers with cheap settlers and tougher archers. Charismatic promotes your units faster. Financial supports a more robust economy. Philosophical gives more great leaders. All of these I consider to be better than Creative.

If you do want to play another Creative civ, however, check out Hatty of the Egyptians. After the initial War Chariot ruch, you can settle back to try out your trick there too.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Cheap theaters and cheap colliseums (don't forget to reprioritize Construction) are nice for dealing with happiness issues, especially in those cases where you feel obligated to abuse the whip.

Cheap theaters also mean that the Globe Theater is readily at hand, and that quickly produces a production monster. Whip out military units and apply the overflow to the Globe (using the slider if necessary), then whip out units and apply the overflow to the Heroic Epic. Then whip out lots and lots of units.

But you were doing that anyway. Creative just means you need fewer hammers to pull it off.

 

[yavoon]

Cheap theaters and cheap colliseums (don't forget to reprioritize Construction) are nice for dealing with happiness issues, especially in those cases where you feel obligated to abuse the whip.

Cheap theaters also mean that the Globe Theater is readily at hand, and that quickly produces a production monster. Whip out military units and apply the overflow to the Globe (using the slider if necessary), then whip out units and apply the overflow to the Heroic Epic. Then whip out lots and lots of units.

But you were doing that anyway. Creative just means you need fewer hammers to pull it off.

cheap theatres has zero impact on the speed at which u can build the globe. and construction is already extremely important for conquest.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

cheap theatres has zero impact on the speed at which u can build the globe.

Cheap theaters mean that you can build the six prerequisite theaters more quickly, so you can start the Globe sooner (the Globe itself builds in the usual time, as far as I know).

 

[yavoon]

Cheap theaters mean that you can build the six prerequisite theaters more quickly, so you can start the Globe sooner (the Globe itself builds in the usual time, as far as I know).

they're so god damn cheap anyway. if u dont have 6 size 4 cities then u have bigger problems.

 

[pigswill]

Its true that theatres ain't too expensive but why whip two pop for a theatre when you can whip one for a theatre and one for an axe? Once your creative civ has built a theatre it gets 5 culture/turn; seriously speeding up border pops/ culture pressure.
I'm not saying that creative is the strongest trait ever (how many threads have there been on that topic?) but if you've got the trait it pays to maximise its benefits.

 

[drkodos]

Creative trait is still good in latter games stages. When cities are captured, or created, it still allows for faster expnasions of the initial land areas around those new cities. Game time period is irrelevant and seems to be a favorite by some to use as a red herring in effort to udermine arguments if favor of creative trait.

 

[yavoon]

Its true that theatres ain't too expensive but why whip two pop for a theatre when you can whip one for a theatre and one for an axe? Once your creative civ has built a theatre it gets 5 culture/turn; seriously speeding up border pops/ culture pressure.
I'm not saying that creative is the strongest trait ever (how many threads have there been on that topic?) but if you've got the trait it pays to maximise its benefits.

because ur way leads to higher unhappiness. and seriously speeding up something that is largely irrelevant isn't that impressive. hey, I like cultural, frederick in vanilla might be the most fun leader IMO to play. it doesn't translate into it being powerful though.

 

[yavoon]

Creative trait is still good in latter games stages. When cities are captured, or created, it still allows for faster expnasions of the initial land areas around those new cities. Game time period is irrelevant and seems to be a favorite by some to use as a red herring in effort to udermine arguments if favor of creative trait.

later in the game most ppl have religions, or u can rush a theatre. finding a way to pop a border in a size 12 captured city is a menial task.

 

[drkodos]

later in the game most ppl have religions, or u can rush a theatre. finding a way to pop a border in a size 12 captured city is a menial task.

I was not refrerring to size 12 cities. Creative is good for land grabbing with new cities regardless of game stage.

 

[yavoon]

I was not refrerring to size 12 cities. Creative is good for land grabbing with new cities regardless of game stage.

just think about it, its not powerful. u'll work it out sooner or later.

 

[MrCynical]

Creative trait is still good in latter games stages. When cities are captured, or created, it still allows for faster expnasions of the initial land areas around those new cities. Game time period is irrelevant and seems to be a favorite by some to use as a red herring in effort to udermine arguments if favor of creative trait.

Creative is highly time period dependent. In a game that's never getting much beyond the Classical era, where culture is hard to come by in new cities, it's useful, hence it's favoured by early warmongers, but 2 culture per turn is trivial in the later game. A newly captured city in the mid or late game could run an artist for a turn or two, and probably has a few religions, which are far more effective for border expansions. The sistine chapel and the statue of liberty or mercantilism gives you all the good of the creative trait as well. Or for that matter you could try the culture slider, and 10% for a single turn will probably do more than creative would in 5 turns at this stage.

Given that its half price building is one of the cheapest in the game anyway, this is a less than impressive combo. It isn't the worst trait in the game, but it's very close.

 

[drkodos]

just think about it, its not powerful. u'll work it out sooner or later.

I will also continue to enjoy using it when I play as a civ that possesses it as one of their traits.

 

[Proteus]

That's just nuts. Before AD (huge Pangea) my economy can barely handle 7 cities. How can you get any research done if you expand aggressively like that.

In Vanilla Civ Catherine has Creative/Financial.

This makes her perfect for builders, as you are able to work the full fat X of your city from turn 15 after founding the city on (without having to build anything) and get an additional gold for every tile that already produces 2 gold, thus giving you the ability to support many cities as well as having rapidly expanding cultural borders.
Combine this with epic or marathion speeds and it isn´t a problem to have more than 7 cities at 0 AD. One reason why I always played Catherine in Vanilla Civ (not more with Warlords, as financial was dropped for imperialistic, watering down her combination of traits).

But AFAIK Mango didn´t even mention the map size he played with catherine. Maybe with standard or smaller maps 5-10 cities are enough to dominate large parts of the world.

 

[yavoon]

I will also continue to enjoy using it when I play as a civ that possesses it as one of their traits.

obviously not reading my posts. I never contended it wasn't fun.