Creative - why's everybody always picking on me?

[snipafist]

Obviously cultural is more of an early-game trait. However, many dismiss it late game, and I feel that's a shame. While only 2 culture/turn may seem paltry, don't forget it's multiplied by cathedrals, free speech, broadcast towers, etc. Additionally, it is enough to tip the scales when set up against an otherwise equal cultural pressure. It's always handy when conquering, as newly conquered cities may take some time to build a theatre (which cultural builds darn quick anyways).

I wouldn't put it as a top-tier trait, but I think treating it as the red-headed stepchild is more than a little unfair.

 

[Proteus]

I think it also has something to do with mapsize.
The larger the map, the more useful creative is.

For huge maps the trait is definitely more useful than for standard/small maps.
(although I also think that they are far from useless, even when every free spot is settled, as you already said, creative has still its uses for conquered cities [and for grabbing cities by culture])

 

[bassist2119]

I think it also has something to do with mapsize.
The larger the map, the more useful creative is.

For huge maps the trait is definitely more useful than for standard/small maps.
(although I also think that they are far from useless, even when every free spot is settled, as you already said, creative has still its uses for conquered cities [and for grabbing cities by culture])

Interesting observation; I immediately presumed the opposite...

I've been playing exclusively on standard sized maps so far. Since creative civs are more likely to have more territory inside their borders, this has the obvious counter-effect of less availability of land to non-creative civs on the same land mass. As map size decreases, so would the availability of land.

 

[bassist2119]

To counter the often proposed stance of, "It's good early but has diminishing returns later," I'll start with the obvious: good early means good later. Nothing improves the value of an exponential equation (and this is a game of exponential growth) like adding to the base factor (i.e. the start of the game). A better position in late-B.C. can have equal if not greater (far greater?) results than solid mid-to-late game decision making. This is not to say that the cultural trait is the only or the best way to get a good start, but it helps.

So much more to add, but it's getting late...

A final note to the warmongerer for now... Picture your standard approach: You scope out their cities, identify which are definite keepers, put your stack in place (or as I like to do, two stacks at opposite ends of their empire) and you're off. You take the first couple of cities without any problem. As you progress, they've had time to build a small counter force. This pins you in place for a few turns while you pick them off/heal, then progress. The slight stifle in your approach has allowed a greater counterattack to develop. Reinforcements are coming, but you start to wonder if your stack will be able to hold their position until then, let alone progress. About this time, you notice a pathetic force approaching one of your cities. The realization hits you that, even if they can't take it, they're going to pillage that cow resource and those three towns will never grow back. And the happy resource there! You check your core cities to see if they'll have enough happiness without it only to find that war weariness is rearing it's head. You start to consider at what point it would be good to sue for peace (and notably get a tech you missed).... I had this happen more times than I care to admit.
Think back to before this conquest attempt happened and imagine how likely their ability to regroup would be if they didn't have their two or three best border cities. Add to this that you would have access to the resources there (that you're currently lacking). Further add to this that resources that you already have there could be traded to them for for something on their interior, or sold back to them; strengthening your economy while weakening theirs. Creative is a massive help in making this happen, and they stare back at you with a glazed grin while your doing it to them.

 

[cabert]

Ok, you like your strat.
I did this too (vanilla), but the effectiveness isn't that grand.

More often than not your opponent has one of the following:

- he's spiritual and has a religion, while you don't = culture (cheap temple + religion culture = 2 cpt, just as much as creative trait, monastery is cheap, is 2 cpt, nearly as much as theater, + bonus to research + ability to build missionaries)

- he's running caste system, with artists to counter the cultural pressure

- and, the most common issue, he has troops. Lots of them. You cannot flip a city with many troops in it. Pacifying effect! + When the cultural pressure flips a tile, you opponent sees it. It's the "tension at the borders" negative relation line. So all those troops go against you . Back to war.

What level are you playing?
I think the strat is only efficient when the AI has little troops (= not higher than noble).
I tried it at prince a few times, and had no success at all.
And believe me, i know how to build culture (i even culture flipped a few good cities from hatchepetsuh while playing mansa musa, in the late game see how powerful 7 monasteries+7 temples + a few cathedrals are against creative trait )

 

[drkodos]

obviously not reading my posts. I never contended it wasn't fun.

I was absolutely reading your posts which is what made me realize you have your mind made up and are not looking for dialogue so much as an argument.

I do not think Creative is a "weak" trait, nor do I think I will "get it" if I keep "thinking about it." Quite the contrary in fact: I think Creative is a powerful trait when controlled by the right person, one whom can work it and maximize its potential, both early and later in the game.

 

[GoldenWheels]

I don't know how it ranks versus every other trait really...nor do i think thats really all that important. Half the fun is tailoring your strat to a new leader and using his traits well.

There's not much I like more than grabbing all the available land with Kublai Khan fast spreading borders....right about the time the good land starts running out...here come the Ger promoted Keshiks and double promoted swordsmen....there goes the opposition.

 

[Martinus]

Ok, you like your strat.
I did this too (vanilla), but the effectiveness isn't that grand.

More often than not your opponent has one of the following:

- he's spiritual and has a religion, while you don't = culture (cheap temple + religion culture = 2 cpt, just as much as creative trait, monastery is cheap, is 2 cpt, nearly as much as theater, + bonus to research + ability to build missionaries)

- he's running caste system, with artists to counter the cultural pressure

- and, the most common issue, he has troops. Lots of them. You cannot flip a city with many troops in it. Pacifying effect! + When the cultural pressure flips a tile, you opponent sees it. It's the "tension at the borders" negative relation line. So all those troops go against you . Back to war.

But if he has any of these and you do not have a Creative trait, he is pushing your border - and conversely, if you are Creative and both you and him are doing any of these, then you are pushing his.

So Creative, like many other traits, gives you an extra edge. It does not guarantee you cultural superiority any more than Industrious guarantees you will win a wonder race, Aggressive guarantees you superior units or Financial guarantees you will have the highest commerce production - but all things being equal, it gives you an edge, or it equalises things in situations in which you would have otherwise been inferior.

 

[Jet]

For those who thing Creative is weaker than average, what if it multiplied culture from the slider? Is there a multiplier that would make Creative more balanced with other traits? +25%?

 

[yavoon]

I was absolutely reading your posts which is what made me realize you have your mind made up and are not looking for dialogue so much as an argument.

I do not think Creative is a "weak" trait, nor do I think I will "get it" if I keep "thinking about it." Quite the contrary in fact: I think Creative is a powerful trait when controlled by the right person, one whom can work it and maximize its potential, both early and later in the game.

fine, u take creative, I take financial.

 

[cabert]

For those who thing Creative is weaker than average, what if it multiplied culture from the slider? Is there a multiplier that would make Creative more balanced with other traits? +25%?

i think it should be +2 cpt for each pop

 

[JackOfClubs]

If you do want to play another Creative civ, however, check out Hatty of the Egyptians. After the initial War Chariot ruch, you can settle back to try out your trick there too.

Hatshepsut can be very effective in domination or culture victories because of her ability to dominate the early game. That war chariot is great attacking cities that only have archers for protection and her Spiritual/Creative traits allow for early border expansion.

But you have to be very careful not to let her drop behind in the technology curve. I did this on my most recent game and got locked in at around the 55% pop/land range. Since both my remaining opponents had vastly superior armies, I couldn't get any more land by military means and they were quite able to run out the clock on my creeping culture war by simply throwing troops at their border cities.

Nothing is more frustrating than a city entirely surrounded by your color that never quite flips. It's like a big zit on the face of an otherwise beautiful landscape.

 

[bassist2119]

Ok, you like your strat.

Hence, the thread

he's spiritual and has a religion, while you don't = culture (cheap temple + religion culture = 2 cpt, just as much as creative trait, monastery is cheap, is 2 cpt, nearly as much as theater, + bonus to research + ability to build missionaries)

Not following you here. Religion spreads, so I can build all that too (for that matter, he can build theaters.) In the end, I have all that he does and vice versa except for the +2 bonus and arguably his "+ religion culture" assuming that I, for some reason, don't name a religion to be state religion.

- he's running caste system, with artists to counter the cultural pressure

So could I

- and, the most common issue, he has troops. Lots of them. You cannot flip a city with many troops in it. Pacifying effect! + When the cultural pressure flips a tile, you opponent sees it. It's the "tension at the borders" negative relation line. So all those troops go against you . Back to war.

Valid point. What you can do, though, is take every square around the city, effectively starving it off while adding resources that are already improved. "Tension at the borders?" I've been taking another tile every fifteen turns or so (probably more by better players) and have had no ill relations. The -1 ro -2 "close border" tension seems to occur whenever borders meet, which is every civ on the same landmass in every game. Regarding troops and the inevitibility of war, this is always the case. I don't know if it's possible to play an entire game without going to war. Although this is getting somewhat off topic, is the underlying builder mentality of the trait. Focusing on building can provide the infrastructure to help fend off aggressors, possibly even come knocking at their door which is often enough to get a peace treaty and continue building.

What level are you playing?

Prince, trying Monarch and having difficulty, but I'm still at the point where I always have difficulty with Monarch

I tried it at prince a few times, and had no success at all.

Sorry to hear you're having difficulty. I haven't had any less success than with any other strat, and often more success when I implement it. I'd say keep trying, but you seem adamantly opposed to the trait. If you don't like it, don't do it.

And believe me, i know how to build culture

And I never questioned that. A statement like this would seem to imply that you feel that I'm going to assault your gameplay; not the case. There are countless threads here where someone proposes an idea, someone else counters strongly, and then the two proceed to childishly demean each other. I'd like NOTHING more than to avoid such scenarios entirely.

I feel that there is a great deal of confusion regarding the intention of the OP. I am not, and would not, imply that the creative trait is some uber trait that's better than all others. What I am saying, as is suggested by the thread title, is that there seems to be a common perception that this trait is absolutely horrible, rediculously less powerful than any other trait. I admit to foolishly accepting this belief due to it's support without ever trying it and was quite dumbfounded when I actually tried it. I also wanted to add that the common perception is that it's only purpose, or main purpose, is border popping, and that it offers many more paints on the palette. A side issue that I wanted to add is the strengths of cultural conquest, which doesn't directly apply to the creative trait (I just brought it up in the same thread because both realizations happened at the same time.) After encountering great difficulty with standard warfare - the war weariness, enemy until the end of the game by declaring war, world-wide diplo penalties, "yearn...motherland," "fight brothers of faith," etc. I was quite happy to find that you can conquer someone while avoiding all this.

 

[cabert]

ok bassist, not quoting because it's a long post, just a few points :
- i tried the same strat (maybe not as thoroughly as you did) a few months ago on prince level, on several occasions. I had no success.
Then i tried the multiple temples approach with a spiritual leader, still on prince. Didn't succeed everytime in flipping (troops!), but acquired a good deal of tiles every time. Against "equal culture force" on monarch (Hatchepetsuh, i was isabella), i even settled a GA (much more efficient than culture bomb vs ancient culture) in this crappy border city, which very suddenly became a very strong one, giving me access to elephants


- i like creative, for the cheap theaters (first thing i whip in a conquered city when i am creative), but i think spiritual is really much more powerful. The +2 cpt aren't a match for a holy city (+5 cpt, and you don't need to go for the state religion, + more for buildings including the possible shrine )

 

[onedreamer]

Creative is good when you conquer enemy cities rather than in your own cities. The city will expand faster and you won't be forced to whip or look at half its population die, plus its exteral tiles, most probably already improved, will be ready sooner and they can be worked because the city will have enough pop. usually. Building very fast a theater is also important in this case because you can then place artist specialists fast and prevent the city to be swallowed by the enemy's culture.
In Pangea maps it's also very useful in the early stages, but I hate pangea. Balanced is so much better.

 

[onedreamer]

- i like creative, for the cheap theaters (first thing i whip in a conquered city when i am creative), but i think spiritual is really much more powerful. The +2 cpt aren't a match for a holy city (+5 cpt, and you don't need to go for the state religion, + more for buildings including the possible shrine )

Hathspesut is both spiritual and creative, and as I tried to prove in other posts she's very effective culture wise and one of my fav. leaders. The great advantage of Spiritual is the no anarchy, compared to which fast temples are a laugh. Since civics in Civ4 are powerful in combination you often need to change 2-3 at a time, and if you have a big empire you risk 2-3 turns of anarchy several times in a game.
Anyways, I don't understand your remark about holy city. That has nothing to do with a trait. You can have a holy city with the creative trait too. That holy city will still have +2 culture compared to others. And in any case, you can't have a holy city in every city, while the +2 cpt of Creative works for every city and without you doing anything.

 

[cabert]

Anyways, I don't understand your remark about holy city. That has nothing to do with a trait.

true, but the strat is about swallowing cities without war.
And i find myself often at the door of a religious nut, often a spiritual one : isa, hatcheptsuh or Gandhi.
Why? because the holy city is a juicy target.
A target you won't be able to outculture...
Is it clearer so?

 

[drkodos]

fine, u take creative, I take financial.

I'd be happy with Augustus (Creative/Organized) vs. anyone you pick in a MP game.

The higher the level played, the more Creative come into its own.

 

[Nuwan]

I find the early border expansion to be useful in city placements.

I got my first emperor win (vanilla) with a spaceship victory playing Frederick.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

cheap theatres has zero impact on the speed at which u can build the globe.

I'd have to disagree here. If you can build that theater in half the time, you're that much quicker to building the Globe Theater. instead of 12 turns to build the Theater, its 6 and now you're 6 turns up on building the Globe than your competition. A couple of turns, chop some, whip some, and you've got your Globe theater in no time.