Crown of Brilliance

[ElCommandante]

I first posted this in the "Stop Nerfing Magic" thread, but it seems to have been lost in the debate. What about removing Crown of Brilliance, then giving Priors the ability to cast Pillar of Fire(as indicated by it's pedia entry) instead of Unyielding Order, and giving Luridus and Chalid the ability to cast a new variant of Unyielding Order. This would make the Empyrean be more of a peaceful religion, and the Order more of a warlike one, as well as reinforcing the Order, since they have less need of the effects of Unyielding Order due to their basilicas and Social Order. Unyielding Order could be renamed to something mediationish, reflecting the Empyrean's core values.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Eh, I'm not really sure that even a renamed Unyielding Order would be all that thematically appropriate for the Empyrean. It is actually a rather militant spell, as it can stop recently captured cities from revolting.


I'm actually toying with the idea of giving Empyrean High Priests Corindale's Peace spell (though I think I'm leaning towards instead making that a second Spirit III spell, and giving it a change to fail to end some of the wars). It does seem like they should have another spell that doesn't kill them though. I tend to think all the priests should have the number of spells they can cast doubled, perhaps having the spells depend on other promotions they take too or having level requirements for some of them.


I prefer keeping Crown of Brillance, but I really don't think that Chalid should have Pillar of Fire. That spell would better fit Brigit, Seraphim, or Order priests. (Currently my version has 3 versions of the spell, 1 for Brigit, 1 for Seraphim, and one for Bannor Priors. I like giving civs synergies with their thematically most appropriate religions. I also let Bannor Confessors cast Ring of Flames, and changed Lightbringers to be a Malakim Vicar UU, which starts with Perfect Sight and Sun II. That also means that when upgraded to Ludidi or Druids they can get Summon Aurealis.)

 

[PotatoOverdose]

The problem is that unyielding order really isn't that great, its a slightly more potent version of guardian of nature only available in 4 cities that is much more expensive in terms of beakers. Chalid, pillar of flame, and crown of brilliance are, on the other hand, simply amazing and are enough to make emperyan worthwhile. So what your proposing is to take an awesome feature from a religion that only gets one hero and move it to an already powerful religion with two heroes in exchange for a mediocre spell version of a civic. So we get a religion that has one weak hero(assuming the changes are carried out) and 4 high pop cities and another religion with two heroes, a number of pre-existing powerful features (e.g. social order) and a ridiculously powerful set of spells. See the problem?

 

[Smakemupagus]

The problem is that unyielding order really isn't that great, its a slightly more potent version of guardian of nature only

Unyielding order also removes all maintenance IIRC, which is pretty awesome

 

[Sarisin]

The problem is that unyielding order really isn't that great, its a slightly more potent version of guardian of nature only available in 4 cities that is much more expensive in terms of beakers. Chalid, pillar of flame, and crown of brilliance are, on the other hand, simply amazing and are enough to make emperyan worthwhile. So what your proposing is to take an awesome feature from a religion that only gets one hero and move it to an already powerful religion with two heroes in exchange for a mediocre spell version of a civic. So we get a religion that has one weak hero(assuming the changes are carried out) and 4 high pop cities and another religion with two heroes, a number of pre-existing powerful features (e.g. social order) and a ridiculously powerful set of spells. See the problem?

All very good points on Empyrean which has become one of my favorite religions. I sigh when I remember the good ole days when the priests all had Crown of Brilliance.

I'm wondering why, especially if you ARE going to nerf Chalid, you don't give the Empyrean followers a second hero that comes earlier. Then it would be like most religions (not CoE). There could be some interesting possibilities there.

 

[ElCommandante]

However, Pillar of Fire's pedia entry specifically references an Order inquisitor torching a Lanun port, and that Chalid's having it in addition to Crown of Brilliance makes him nigh unstoppable. Replacing Unyielding Order with Pillar of Fire would make Priors a integral part of an army, and add a bit more flavor to the Order. That being said, it would be cool if the Empyrean had an earlier hero, perhaps available with Honor.

 

[Zechnophobe]

The problem is that unyielding order really isn't that great, its a slightly more potent version of guardian of nature only available in 4 cities that is much more expensive in terms of beakers. Chalid, pillar of flame, and crown of brilliance are, on the other hand, simply amazing and are enough to make emperyan worthwhile. So what your proposing is to take an awesome feature from a religion that only gets one hero and move it to an already powerful religion with two heroes in exchange for a mediocre spell version of a civic. So we get a religion that has one weak hero(assuming the changes are carried out) and 4 high pop cities and another religion with two heroes, a number of pre-existing powerful features (e.g. social order) and a ridiculously powerful set of spells. See the problem?

Unyielding Order's best effect is immediately ending unrest in a city. Everything else is just kinda neat.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

But couldn't you end unrest by sacrificing a cheap disciple unit (iirc the +culture sacrifice ends unrest in a conquered city) available thousands of beakers earlier? By the time you get high priests, you could easily have cities that could build that unit in 1-2 turn(s). Combined with the limited amount of cities per map, ending unrest in a city doesn't seem too hot for a high priest spell. However, this is fine if other aspects of the religion compensate for this, which is true in the case of Order. However, if the suggested changes to empyrean were implemented, empyrean would offer very little relative to other religions, creating a huge balance issue that would require more work on the part of the devs. Much easier to update a piece of outdated lore/pedia entries imo.

 

[Kenjister]

I think giving Prior back the ability to cast Pillar of Fire would be a great idea. It would give the Order a bit more flavor and make Priors, who imo at the moment, aren't much better than confessors an important part of the army. It would also weaken Chalid a bit, to make him less unstoppable, but still quite formidable. This would also make the Empyrean less militaristic (good flavorwise), and if they are needing in anything, I say give them a boost through the temples to reflect their peaceful (or overly beauracratic, whichever way you see it) tendencies.

As for making The Order too strong, I don't know about other people's playstyles, but I find that Social Order isn't that great of a civic since my cities don't hit the happiness cap very often. The Religion civic usually takes care of that. I think giving them Pillar of fire wouldn't make them too strong, the AV would probably still be the strongest.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Mardero is the guy who deserves pillar of fire if Chalid loses it. Not priors.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

No, Mardero mostly needs to gain the Divine promotion (like Sphenot has; before the sorcery/summoing merge they were equal, with Sphenor being Sorcery/Divine and Merdero Sorcery/summoning, but that change cut Mardero's abilities in half), letting him cast Ring of Fire and Summon Balor. I'd also be open to giving both Merdero and Sphenor Flying, and maybe a second spell sphere (it is quite odd that Sphenor doesn't have Law, and Mardero may be the son of Hastur so Mind might be appropriate). There is absolutely no thematic reason for Mardero to have such a powerful fire spell.


The civilopedia still mentions Priors and Confessors using divine fire spells, so it is more appropriate for them. (I believe that all those using them were Bannor though, so I added the spells as Bannor specific Order priest spells, which seemed appropriate for the civ that was once the embodiment of holy fire.) Of course, it would be more appropriate still for Brigit (the Archangel of Fire) or Seraphs (which literally means "burning ones"). Seraphs used to have access to Ring of Fire and Pillar of Fire, but the sorcery summoning merge left them instead with fireballs, fire elementals, cure disease, and heal. I think a unit specific Pillar of Fire would probably be more appropriate than Fire1/Channeling2/Channeling3/Divine.

 

[MiKa523]

Unyielding Order's best effect is immediately ending unrest in a city. Everything else is just kinda neat.

Which you can also and probably much more easier achieve with a disciple that in addition also provides culture for the first expansion.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Unyielding order also removes all maintenance IIRC, which is pretty awesome

Not for the cost of leaving a tier 3 caster at home.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

At home isn't where the maintenance is the worst, though. If you capture a distant city, it's quite significant, and they can still bless, heal, & convert from the front lines.

The civilopedia still mentions Priors and Confessors using divine fire spells, so it is more appropriate for them.

Go by gameplay. Stories can be changed. (Not to say theme is irrelevant, but details aren't set in stone.)

 

[zup]

Really? Can't we for change alter gameplay to be less balanced (read: identical) rather than lore?

Does every religion need huge amount of tools for warfare? Can't Empyrean be more about 'I don't want to get involved in your petty wars and am just going to turtle here and soon I'll win in some peaceful way' (altar most likely) religion? Or must they all get dragged down to the arms race?

 

[Keeper_GFA]

At home isn't where the maintenance is the worst, though. If you capture a distant city, it's quite significant, and they can still bless, heal, & convert from the front lines.

I meant "at home" as "in a city" instead of on the front lines.

 

[zup]

Also, UO helps grow big cities before too much future tech. Not that useful for Calabim but I guess they don't need new tools late game.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It might be good to make Unyielding Order the Law III spell again.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

It might be good to make Unyielding Order the Law III spell again.

I agree 100%. By the time you can get law III units(unless you're law III unit is chalid), +1xp per combat is not too useful, making it a poor choice for archmage. Unyielding Order, on the other hand, could be quite useful as an archmage spell.

Really? Can't we for change alter gameplay to be less balanced (read: identical) rather than lore?

Does every religion need huge amount of tools for warfare? Can't Empyrean be more about 'I don't want to get involved in your petty wars and am just going to turtle here and soon I'll win in some peaceful way' (altar most likely) religion? Or must they all get dragged down to the arms race?

balanced=/=identical. Not every religion has huge tools for warfare (read: FoL), but every religion need something useful (i.e. emperyean get's chalid with pillar of flames and crown of brilliance for it's high priests while OO dominates naval and coastal warfare). The problem is, thus far, nothing adequate has been proposed as a substitute for Emperyean's current hand. Also, the lore is adjusted to fit the mod, not the other way around (see: any number of past updates, sorcery/summoning merge for example, past balance threads, etc.) Furthermore, horribly unbalanced games are not fun. Imagine playing a chess game where white starts with 5 queens and a king vs. black with a king and two pawns. It wouldn't be a fun game for anyone.

 

[zup]

I'll start adjusting lore right here then. The new Empyrean slogan:

"Screw wisdom and meditation. We go to war."

EDIT: Don't take it too seriously guys.