Cultural Deity before 1000AD is possible
- Thread starter jesusin
- Start date
I'm curious as to how you would get the 4 religious if you sacrifice science for hammers. I've never had more than one spread, and that one is usually late. Founding poly and belining CoL will most times ensure you 2, depending on what the AI does with Oracle. Without a cottage city I don't see how you could research Philo first and get Lib before 300AD. Plus, you would have to withhold CoL from everybody so they don't go for philo. Or would it now be worth a GS to pop Philo?
That's exactly my point favouring GS over GA. By using multiple GS's to lightbulb techs, you only need to research drama and mathematics after alphabet (even mathematics sometimes can be obtained from AI players). You use lightbulbed techs to trade for the prerequisites of the next techs (these prerequisites are CoL, CS, ironworking and metal casting), all the way to liberalism.
Therefore at this point you can slide your culture bar to 100%, which gives you a free hand in whipping the buildings, including cathedrals -- that's about half a dozen more unhappiness points you can sustain. If you take advantage of this, and carefully planned to use small buildings/units to generate overflows for the big ones, you sure can get your cathedrals several turns earlier.
My estimate is that you are about 15 turns earlier in liberalism (100% multiplier) and about 10 turns earlier in first cathedral (50% multiplier), 20 turns earlier in the second cathedral (50% multiplier), and so on. Your culture building will become legendary earlier (that's a 100% boost in this part), and your cottages become towns earlier due to a larger sustainable population.
The effect is so dramatic that I am willing to say: cultural victory is all about when do you slide your culture bar to 100%.
I am going to argue with you. But please, bear in mind that that doesn't mean I have to be right. I wholeheartedly appreciate your contribution.
I played that "as much GS as possible" game with your ideas in mind. I reached Liberalism in the BC. The game was quite good, but it didn't reach the first place, which WastinTime kept. Maybe it was because "lots of GS is a bad strategy". Maybe it was because there were other factor I didn't master at the time.
The first few turns after you end research are disappointing. You add maybe 400cpt between all three cities.
If you whip hardly, as you suggest with those "half a dozen more unhappiness points", then you stop working/growing cottages. And you hurt your GPfarming too. I'd say that the whipping-limit is not happines, but commerce output. So maybe whipping while researching is better than whipping after finishing research. Who knows?
Hi Jesusin, I didn't play that much, so chances are you are correct and I'm wrong.
Nevertheless, I checked the #1 game in small map deity setting. My sense is that WastinTime had a very good starting point.
He must have a gold in his first city since he got meditation on turn 6, mining on turn 10, priesthood on turn 14 and writing on turn 20 (finished researching writing in 6 turns means that he had 20 science per turn at that point, and it could only be achieved with a mined gold spot). His 2nd city was built on turn 24, and he got CoL on turn 32 --- that means he was close to 30 science per turn with only two cities -- possibly another gold resource? With these resources he could have researched alphabet by turn 30.
How's your starting? Was it as good?
Nevertheless, I checked the #1 game in small map deity setting. My sense is that WastinTime had a very good starting point.
He must have a gold in his first city since he got meditation on turn 6, mining on turn 10, priesthood on turn 14 and writing on turn 20 (finished researching writing in 6 turns means that he had 20 science per turn at that point, and it could only be achieved with a mined gold spot). His 2nd city was built on turn 24, and he got CoL on turn 32 --- that means he was close to 30 science per turn with only two cities -- possibly another gold resource? With these resources he could have researched alphabet by turn 30.
How's your starting? Was it as good?
I don't think so. I have had some 2 gems start, but then my 2nd city was on the most fooded site, so not much commerce coming from the 2nd city.
Also I have only recently started to try for the CS slingshot, so my usual techpath was different from him, something like beeline Pottery then beeline Alphabet and only then CoL.
killercane
Deity
I would posit that its fairly easy to get 5-6 religions on these settings if that is what you are shooting for.
3 religions is almost enough. 4 is best if you want 11xx AD. 5 is probably too much. My 1265 AD game wasn't anything special. We had just finished the Standard Map gauntlet, so I wanted to make one run at Small while my strategy was fresh in my mind. I had 4 cities, 3 religions and only 5 cathedrals. Oracle, but no Parthenon. I was still doing the cottage city approach, so I haven't even tried the "hammer city" myself yet.
14 GP + probably first to music
One thing that really worked was that my cottage city and capitol shared several cottage squares. So once I realized that the capitol was going to make it easy, I let the 2nd city use all the cottages.
I'd suggest popping Philo with a GS for the 3rd religion (hope 4th spreads).
A GS for academy
Maybe 3rd GS for edu.
14 GP + probably first to music
One thing that really worked was that my cottage city and capitol shared several cottage squares. So once I realized that the capitol was going to make it easy, I let the 2nd city use all the cottages.
I'd suggest popping Philo with a GS for the 3rd religion (hope 4th spreads).
A GS for academy
Maybe 3rd GS for edu.
I wanted to test WastinTimes theory of the hammer city so I replayed an old map that I knew had a good location for it. Actual finish date 1295AD but as I explain below this would likely have been 11xx on a small map if I had popped philo to found Tao.
Map was std size (used for gauntlet jesusin, it was the map I posted you didnt like too much) but I played it like small only allowed 4 cities and made the GP farm build temples. To minimize benefit of map knowledge I explored like it was a new map. I got lucky and popped pottery (in addition to ag), but should have had just enough time to research it (and fishing, without ag) and still timed the slingshot ok, though it would have been very, very close.
I only reloaded for carelessness or an unsuccessful gamble. If I reloaded after a gamble I didnt try it again. There was only 1 successful gamble I built the Taj, but it wouldnt have been necessary for 11xx on a small map Tao and cathedrals in the hammer city would have made the difference.
Cap build: worker-warrior-settler-parth-library
Hammer city build: oracle-settler-worker
Research: Ag(free)-poly-pott(free)-mining-ph-mas-writ-CoL(1840bc)-CS(free, 1600bc)-alpha(1300bc)-drama-music-paper-lit-edu-lib(260AD)-nat(free)-0%
260AD culture (@100%, after FS): 348-82-82 (116-41-41 raw)
I didnt save in 1100 like I should have.
1295AD culture (without starvation): 765-170-150
Because I could not build cathedrals in the hammer city my goals were 1) to get the capital legendary by 1100 and 2) to pop enough GAs by 1100 so that if I could have built the cathedrals I would have an 1100 win. I didnt actually get either of these, but I think I know why and how to fix it:
Cap went legendary in 1190. It missed 1100 simply because I only had 2 religions (hindu/confu) until bud spread (710AD). With 1 GS, I would have popped Tao and had 3 cathedrals at Lib/switch to FS in 260AD. Earlier bud would have helped even more.
I had 12 GAs by 1100 (inc. the music one) and 3 after. Therefore I needed 4 more (3+ a replacement for the Tao GS) before 1100. 3 are easy 1) starve cap once its legendary 2) starve 4th city 3) cathedrals in the hammer city (-1 GA requirement). The fourth either needs the hammer city cathedrals to make up for another GA, or either the cap or GP farms to pop one more by 1100 than they did by 1290. The latter should be possible on a better map since the GP farm only had 2F and sugar (no FPs) and the aux farm only had 1fp and sheep (jesusins right, maps not great except for the capital). I also could have built NE a few turns earlier by researching lit before paper or maybe run Merc after the cap went legendary. Or some combination of the above. Note if you can pop yet another GA, you can make a 2nd (1st) GS for academy thats the winner!
To summarize the analysis:
1) Hammer city strategy works.
2) Hammer city is 2nd city and immediately builds oracle CS slingshot mandatory for research since no cottages outside cap; also needs the oracle culture.
3) 1 GS to found Tao.
4) Cathedrals in hammer city.
5) Make sure hammer city doesnt pop a GP.
Map was std size (used for gauntlet jesusin, it was the map I posted you didnt like too much) but I played it like small only allowed 4 cities and made the GP farm build temples. To minimize benefit of map knowledge I explored like it was a new map. I got lucky and popped pottery (in addition to ag), but should have had just enough time to research it (and fishing, without ag) and still timed the slingshot ok, though it would have been very, very close.
I only reloaded for carelessness or an unsuccessful gamble. If I reloaded after a gamble I didnt try it again. There was only 1 successful gamble I built the Taj, but it wouldnt have been necessary for 11xx on a small map Tao and cathedrals in the hammer city would have made the difference.
Cap build: worker-warrior-settler-parth-library
Hammer city build: oracle-settler-worker
Research: Ag(free)-poly-pott(free)-mining-ph-mas-writ-CoL(1840bc)-CS(free, 1600bc)-alpha(1300bc)-drama-music-paper-lit-edu-lib(260AD)-nat(free)-0%
260AD culture (@100%, after FS): 348-82-82 (116-41-41 raw)
I didnt save in 1100 like I should have.
1295AD culture (without starvation): 765-170-150
Because I could not build cathedrals in the hammer city my goals were 1) to get the capital legendary by 1100 and 2) to pop enough GAs by 1100 so that if I could have built the cathedrals I would have an 1100 win. I didnt actually get either of these, but I think I know why and how to fix it:
Cap went legendary in 1190. It missed 1100 simply because I only had 2 religions (hindu/confu) until bud spread (710AD). With 1 GS, I would have popped Tao and had 3 cathedrals at Lib/switch to FS in 260AD. Earlier bud would have helped even more.
I had 12 GAs by 1100 (inc. the music one) and 3 after. Therefore I needed 4 more (3+ a replacement for the Tao GS) before 1100. 3 are easy 1) starve cap once its legendary 2) starve 4th city 3) cathedrals in the hammer city (-1 GA requirement). The fourth either needs the hammer city cathedrals to make up for another GA, or either the cap or GP farms to pop one more by 1100 than they did by 1290. The latter should be possible on a better map since the GP farm only had 2F and sugar (no FPs) and the aux farm only had 1fp and sheep (jesusins right, maps not great except for the capital). I also could have built NE a few turns earlier by researching lit before paper or maybe run Merc after the cap went legendary. Or some combination of the above. Note if you can pop yet another GA, you can make a 2nd (1st) GS for academy thats the winner!
To summarize the analysis:
1) Hammer city strategy works.
2) Hammer city is 2nd city and immediately builds oracle CS slingshot mandatory for research since no cottages outside cap; also needs the oracle culture.
3) 1 GS to found Tao.
4) Cathedrals in hammer city.
5) Make sure hammer city doesnt pop a GP.
Actually, there's no reason to panic if you get one G.Prophet. Unlike the Academy, which doesn't double from 4 to 8 culture (bug?), the Shrine does go to 8 culture after 1000 years. With 300-400% multipliers in the capitol, that's a lot of culture, almost as much as a GA would give. Unfortunately that culture is probably in the capitol. If you drop the shrine in the hammer city, it should still get at least 200% which isn't bad.
Don't forget the extra $$$ you get from the shrine. On smaller maps (even more so on Tiny, Duel), that can allow you to run your slider at 100%.
Good point - it would generate around 1250 culture - almost half the GA it could have been, plus the $$. And if you wait until after oracle/CoL to build your third city you should found confu in the hammer one. Drawback is you are also getting another +1GP from the shrine and you can't pop a 2nd GS for Academy unless you're sure you will have enough GA's. Still, with careful play the situtation could indeed be managed.
You are getting close, FiveAces! Maybe you could have built the NE sooner if you had gone to Music through Lite?
Oh, please, FiveAces, keep panicking!
You don't need the gold. Deity AI are so rich that when you trade away your happiness resources you are on the green at 0%.
A shrine at 1AD will increase the chances of a 2nd GProphet, will not double culture in time to be noticeable and will add just a third EDIT: sixth of the culture of a GA.
What do you do with your hammer city when you are not building Wonders? I would have said that you hire specialist for an additional GA. That combines quite well with the GPP you are getting from the Wonders themselves.
Additionally you could build the Oracle in the capital and the Parthenon in the second city.
Oh, please, FiveAces, keep panicking!
You don't need the gold. Deity AI are so rich that when you trade away your happiness resources you are on the green at 0%.
A shrine at 1AD will increase the chances of a 2nd GProphet, will not double culture in time to be noticeable and will add just a third EDIT: sixth of the culture of a GA.
What do you do with your hammer city when you are not building Wonders? I would have said that you hire specialist for an additional GA. That combines quite well with the GPP you are getting from the Wonders themselves.
Additionally you could build the Oracle in the capital and the Parthenon in the second city.
Yes, of course! That is the path. Then if you can't trade for drama you just research it after Lib, which you get 3 turns earlier. Lit you can trade for but not early enough if you withhold alpha for better trading - a must IMO with only 4 AI on a small map.
Actually I'm usually on 100 soon after trading for currency, but early shrine might allow 100% (90% at worst) throughout. I don't think shrine is only 1/6though - 1000yrs goes by quick when it's the first gp - I figured it is built around turn 30, leaving 100turns culture, 30 of +4, 30 of +8, and 40 of +24 = 1320, rounded down and excluded effects of cathedrals before FS in case I was too optimistic... but I agree it's not the preferred option.
Cathedrals. I built unnecessary wealth in my practice game instead. Build was oracle-settler-worker-theater/worker/settler/monasteries/temples (not sure exact order), library, then wealth for the hypothetical cathedrals. The GPP from Oracle negates popping a GP unless you want to go for broke on the last one.
This is worth a try as you could then hire artists and the cap would be freed up after oracle to build settler/worker, but I'm not sure you will have enough hammers there to routinely beat AI to the parthenon - remember you will only have 1 worker for most of the build and he needs to build some cottages in the capital too... But you could chop out the last bit after alpha... This is worth experimenting on my practice map to see how it plays out.
Now if only I could do all this on a legal map... Almost time to see what MF came up with yesterday.
Ick. The slingshot is really hard. It's not so much building the Oracle before the AI - it's researching CoL before the AI builds the Oracle. There is usually not enough time to get both masonry and ag beforehand. So I tried using Oracle for CoL, which was more reliable (and you don't absolutely need marble), but it took me forever to research CS (after alpha) without a cottage city, which really hurt. But I still was only beaten to Lib by 2 turns in the late 300AD's (1 GS for philo) and had unsuccessfully pursued Music, so if I forsook that GA I would have easily been 1st to Lib, and by a respectable year too, so there might be something to this.
1) for the slingshot, you can skip ag if you have gems, but your 1st settler will be a slower build, so you prob need marble
2) if you have gold you pretty much have to skip masonry and build Oracle in capital
3) you can be really lucky and either pop ag/masonry or just have the AI be slower than usual in building it
4) you can skip the slingshot all together and use Oracle for CoL
I don't think skipping the Oracle is an option if you won't have a cottage city. Any thoughts on whether it's worth using it for CoL if you don't think you can make the slingshot?
Are we sure we need the parthenon? The early marble requirement invalidates some otherwise playable maps.
1) for the slingshot, you can skip ag if you have gems, but your 1st settler will be a slower build, so you prob need marble
2) if you have gold you pretty much have to skip masonry and build Oracle in capital
3) you can be really lucky and either pop ag/masonry or just have the AI be slower than usual in building it
4) you can skip the slingshot all together and use Oracle for CoL
I don't think skipping the Oracle is an option if you won't have a cottage city. Any thoughts on whether it's worth using it for CoL if you don't think you can make the slingshot?
Are we sure we need the parthenon? The early marble requirement invalidates some otherwise playable maps.
CoL slingshot doesn't seem worth it. I'd rather not corrupt my gene pool with prophets for that small gain. If you do though, you might be able to use the prophet to get CS lightbulbed. You may need a temple and have to work a priest to get it fast enough.
My feeling is if you are going hammer city instead of cottage you will need the Oracle to accelerate research and provide culture to make up for no cottages.
With a cottage city I agree it is not necessary.
I suspect that if you're following a hammer strategy, your hammer-rich cities will spend some time with nothing to do. So, do you-
- Put out extra settlers in order to grow cottages & build temples
- Put out military for security
- Put out workers for chopping (in hammer-poor cities) and improvements
- Build wonders which will improve the culture
- Work on culture
Actually, another: you could conceivably work on research with your hammer-rich city for a short while, if you're having trouble with Civil Service for example.
So, what do you guys do? Or is it not a problem, in the end?
- Put out extra settlers in order to grow cottages & build temples
- Put out military for security
- Put out workers for chopping (in hammer-poor cities) and improvements
- Build wonders which will improve the culture
- Work on culture
Actually, another: you could conceivably work on research with your hammer-rich city for a short while, if you're having trouble with Civil Service for example.
So, what do you guys do? Or is it not a problem, in the end?
Your cities never have nothing to build. There's barely enough time to squeeze out a few missionaries. Maybe one of your non-lengendary cities runs out since they just build a few temples, then probably build a worker for chopping.
Which is why the slingshot is nice - you get all those extra hammers from early beaurocracy.
I've been trying some Liz and Qin for variety. With an oasis or other 3g tile you can found poly about 90% of the time. Qin is nice because he starts with ag and mining, but he's not philo, so you need the parth and a killer GP farm.
