Currently the WORST Problem with Civ5 is...

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Soryn Arkayn

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The AI cannot manage its Workers!

The AI cannot be competitive with the Player if it doesn't bother to improve its map tiles. It doesn't matter how much the AI cheats or what bonuses it receives, if the AI fails to perform something as fundamentally simple and vital as improving map tiles, there's no point.

IME this wasn't a problem until the latest patch (back in August); prior to that the AI did just fine at producing enough Workers and improving all of their tiles.

But now, this is common:

Civ5ScreenArabia01.jpg


The American Civ's capital city has only 4 improved tiles, 1 incomplete tile improvement, and over 20 unimproved tiles (except for roads). That is absolutely shameful. Most of their other cities' tiles were un-developed also. The Persians and Inca suffered from the same problem. Whereas the Egyptians, Polynesians, and English fully improved their tiles.

It doesn't make any sense to me how some AI civs improve their tiles properly, whereas others completely neglect them, and only improve tiles with luxuries or strategic resources.

I don't know how Firaxis screwed this up so badly considering it used to work fine, but it needs to be fixed in the next patch.
 
Workers "movement"? :crazyeye: Did you even read what I wrote? :rolleyes:

No, the AI cannot manage its Workers. MANAGE! The AI doesn't use its Workers to improve city tiles like it's supposed to. Tile improvements are arguably more important than city buildings, so when the AI neglects them, they can't possibly compete with the Player.
 
I have never been able to take the same kind of picture from any of my games. Atlanta looks to have a completely unimproved iron tile right next to it.

Were the Americans constantly at war after discovering Construction or Iron Working? Were the civs who improved their tiles better more at peace? Is this a difficulty level where the AI has less resources?

I'm assuming Washington has been bigger than the size 4 it's at now, right? Otherwise there wouldn't be much wrong with a total of 4 improved tiles...

I certainly don't see the same problem in my games. The worst thing I see is when an iron resource pops up on an already farmed tile. AI workers don't redo previous improvements, so you sometimes see an AI having no iron, while they actually have a few iron resources in their borders. The same problem would exist with some later-game resources.
And AI workers can run straight in the hands of an enemy unit.
But on the whole, no, worker management is not the biggest problem Civ 5 has, not judging from my games.
 
Is this a difficulty level where the AI has less resources?

Difficulty level doesn't have any effect on AI resource count. :P

Besides, the AI always plays at Chieftain.
 
I play on king, and I often see masses of unimproved tiles in the AI's lands. Even things like bonus resources are unimproved, such as sheep and deer. I don't think I've ever seen the AI remove swamp either. Maybe we'll get a "decent worker AI" DLC for $5.95 or something one day.

Just a thought. I play with the options set to "automated workers don't remove forest" and "automated workers don't change existing". I have to wonder if this affects the AI as well.
 
Difficulty level doesn't have any effect on AI resource count. :P

Besides, the AI always plays at Chieftain.
With 'resources' I just meant 'means' in general. On higher levels they would have cheaper workers, more citizens to produce stuff and less unit supply worries than on lower levels. That could make a difference.
About the AI playing at Chieftain... wouldn't that only affect things like their happiness levels and bonus against barbarians?
 
I have never been able to take the same kind of picture from any of my games.

I'm not sure what you meant. Are you asking how to take a screenshot?

Atlanta looks to have a completely unimproved iron tile right next to it.

Were the Americans constantly at war after discovering Construction or Iron Working? Were the civs who improved their tiles better more at peace? Is this a difficulty level where the AI has less resources?

I'm assuming Washington has been bigger than the size 4 it's at now, right? Otherwise there wouldn't be much wrong with a total of 4 improved tiles...

The American civ was on the other continent from where I started, so I don't know how long or how often the Americans were at war. Polynesia and Egypt had conquered all of the American cities except Washington, which was pop 8 before I conquered it.

Even if America had been at war early and often, the fact that Inca and Persia suffered from the same problem means that war can't be the sole cause of this problem. I was the only enemy of the Inca and I didn't DoW on them until around 800 CE. When I conquered their capital its tiles were less than half improved. I'm not sure about Persia because Polynesia had conquered most of their cities and their tiles were mostly un-improved.

This has been a recurring problem that I've encountered in every campaign since the patch. Regardless of whether a civ loses its Workers from war and doesn't produce more; or if another civ conquers those cities and doesn't improve the tiles, it doesn't matter. The fact is that the AI neglects to improve its terrain tiles, which is absolutely essential for developing cities. It's so fundamental I shouldn't even need to explain why.

I certainly don't see the same problem in my games. The worst thing I see is when an iron resource pops up on an already farmed tile. AI workers don't redo previous improvements, so you sometimes see an AI having no iron, while they actually have a few iron resources in their borders. The same problem would exist with some later-game resources.

And AI workers can run straight in the hands of an enemy unit.

But on the whole, no, worker management is not the biggest problem Civ 5 has, not judging from my games.

IME the AI can and does replace tile improvements when new resources are discovered. The City-states do this ALL THE TIME. The AI civs sometimes neglect to replace improvements to acquire new resources -- but IME this is usually because they're not as advanced as me, so I can see they have Oil or Aluminum or Uranium, but they don't; hence they don't replace a Farm or Trading Post with a Derrick or Mine to acquire the resource. But as you can see from my screenshot, the Americans neglected to build a Mine to acquire Iron, as well as a Quarry to acquire Stone. That's ridiculous!

I know that AI Workers often blunder into enemy units and get captured; but that doesn't excuse the AI from not producing more. Obviously a lot of improvements to the AI are necessary so that the AI doesn't squader its Workers and it replaces lost Workers.

I acknowledge that Civ5 has PLENTY of problems, but this seems like the worst recurring problem, because during every playthrough since the patch, several Civs suffer from this problem, and they get dominated by the other civs because they can't compete. And I don't consider it fun or any challenge to conquer such backwards civs.
 
I used to notice that AI always had tiles without improvements when I was playing King difficulty but when I went up a difficulty level to emperor that stopped being the case. They get early workers (prob from production bonus and lower maintenance costs) and work their tiles earlier than me.
 
I used to notice that AI always had tiles without improvements when I was playing King difficulty but when I went up a difficulty level to emperor that stopped being the case. They get early workers (prob from production bonus and lower maintenance costs) and work their tiles earlier than me.

Firaxis should be ashamed of themselves if the AI needs to cheat as badly as it does on Emperor just so they can produce Workers and improve their tiles like they're supposed to on EVERY difficulty level.

How can Civ5 be this BROKEN more than a year after it was released? IME previous Civ games never had this problem. It didn't matter that the maps were larger, there were at least twice as many cities, and at least 5 times as many units; the AI still improved all of their tiles, regardless of what difficulty setting. How is it possible that Civ4's AI is actually superior to Civ5's? Did Firaxis fire all of the smart, experienced programmers that worked on Civ4 and hire a bunch of third-rate interns instead?

And where is this patch that was supposed to be released at the end of November? Whenever it's released, it had better fix Civ5's major problems, such as this one, or I'm done. I'll gladly go back to playing Civ4 again. There's no way I'm paying for more DLC or an expansion pack if the core game is this screwed up.
 
I'm not sure what you meant. Are you asking how to take a screenshot?
I could manage a screenshot, but to take a screenshot of a George Washington in such a lacklustre mood would be more difficult. He's a bit more active in my games:

George.jpg


Although I do see AI's missing out on tiles regularly as well. This is Wu in the same game:

WuZ.jpg


I think it's okay that she left the jungle as jungle, but a few more trading posts would have been possible, I only see one on the hill at the bottom of the picture.

Difficulty level could make a lot of difference. The AI is a bit of a slouch on lower levels.
On Deity the AI starts with 2 workers,
on Immortal with 1,
lower than that nothing, no free workers there.
Even that could already make some difference. At least you can expect the first few dozen turns of the game to be peaceful, so an Immortal or Deity AI would have no excuse not to make a decent start with improvements. Even the techs to allow those improvements will be in quickly, a Deity AI already starts with quite a few techs.

My screens are not from Deity, by the way, it's Immortal, but I see the AI being okay there with the amount of improvements they're putting in place.

It's been said often that Civ 5 needs to be played on a higher level than previous Civ games.
 
Optional, your screenshots from your game don't refute my point. Possibly the most bewildering part of this problem is that it can happen to any AI civ. In the campaign that I posted the pic of, Egypt was my main rival and they did a decent job of improving their tiles (but not all of them were improved when I invaded around 1600 CE). One or two campaigns ago, Egypt suffered from the same problem as America; less than half of their tiles were improved.

The AI should not have to cheat by receiving free Workers to improve its tiles properly. Tile improvements have been part of the foundation of Civ's gameplay, and are arguably more important than city improvements, so for the AI to neglect them it effectively neutralizes them as a competitor. Whether the AI neglects to build enough Workers, or cannot manage them properly, or loses them because of wars or barbarian attacks, and fails to build replacements, it doesn't matter. The point is that the AI frequently neglects to improve its tiles and it cripples their development.

Firaxis needs to fix the AI, plain and simple. This isn't a situation wherein simply playing on a higher difficulty level will alleviate the problem, because it won't. Because even though the AI receives free Workers, if it was to lose them for whatever reason, the AI apparently isn't smart enought to replace them. If the AI cannot recognize that it needs Workers to improve its tiles, then Civ5 is obviously BROKEN.
 
Firaxis should be ashamed of themselves if the AI needs to cheat as badly as it does on Emperor just so they can produce Workers and improve their tiles like they're supposed to on EVERY difficulty level.

How can Civ5 be this BROKEN more than a year after it was released? IME previous Civ games never had this problem. It didn't matter that the maps were larger, there were at least twice as many cities, and at least 5 times as many units; the AI still improved all of their tiles, regardless of what difficulty setting. How is it possible that Civ4's AI is actually superior to Civ5's? Did Firaxis fire all of the smart, experienced programmers that worked on Civ4 and hire a bunch of third-rate interns instead?

And where is this patch that was supposed to be released at the end of November? Whenever it's released, it had better fix Civ5's major problems, such as this one, or I'm done. I'll gladly go back to playing Civ4 again. There's no way I'm paying for more DLC or an expansion pack if the core game is this screwed up.
Moderator Action: Please do not turn this into a thinly veiled rant thread. There is evidently an issue to discuss here, so please discuss it. This post barely addresses the thread topic.
 
I did not intend to "rant". I was expressing my justifiable frustration that in every campaign since the latest patch, I've encountered AI civs that have neglected to improve their tiles, for whatever reason. Logically, incompetent AI can only be blamed on Firaxis' incompetence.

I've played Civ5 since it was released, and I don't recall encountering this problem until the latest patch. Considering all of the changes Firaxis made to Civ5 in the patch (many of which I don't like), it's not surprising that they overlooked something crucial and screwed things up.

Based on what I know about modding Civ5, I suspect the cause of the problem might be the "flavors", which determine what units, buildings, and wonders the AI will build. Everything is assigned a flavor, which is a numerical representation of its importance. I suspect that if the AI's Workers are captured by an enemy civ or barbarians, the AI doesn't recognize that it needs to replace them. It's possible that the AI is programmed to produce X number of Workers, so it does, and when it meets or exceeds that number it stops. It's possible someone screwed up and made it so that the X value can only be added, but not subtracted; which means that if the AI loses Workers, the X value doesn't reduce and the AI doesn't produce additional Workers. Without Workers the AI cannot improve its tiles, which means that civ is out of contention and will never be more than a whipping boy for the other civs.

It's apparent that many players have encountered this problem to some degree. It is a recurring problem in every campaign I've played since the patch. It's not as much of a problem for players who play on the higher difficulty levels because the AI cheats and receives ridiculous bonuses such as free Workers. The only way for the Player to compete is to produce enough units to deter the AI from attacking, and shamelessly exploit Research Agreements to advance in the tech race. That ensures that higher difficulty campaigns tend to be relatively peaceful; fewer wars ensure that Workers aren't captured, therefore the AI can improve its tiles like it should.

Regardless, this is a problem that needs to be recognized and fixed.
 
I think players have noticed before that the AI doesn't seem to deal very well with its workers being captured by Barbarians. Even if you rescue and return workers to the AI, the workers tend to have trouble making it back to their homeland to be useful. In such circumstances, you see an underdeveloped AI like the one above.

At a certain point, the AI just seems to stop making workers, even though it needs them. And I agree with those who have said that I've been seeing some really underdeveloped lands recently. This isn't the "worst" issue with the AI, but it certainly is one that could be addressed (fairly easily? That, I don't know).
 
Perhaps the AI's mismanagement of Workers and neglecting to improve its tiles is the "worst" problem with the AI, but IMO it's the worst AI problem to arise from the latest patch.

I realize that in the big picture, the AI's incompetence at combat and inability to launch seaborne invasions are worse. But those problems have existed since Civ5's release, and Firaxis seems unwilling or incapable of fixing those problems.

However, this problem didn't exist until the latest patch, so they need to fix whatever they screwed up in that patch.


BTW, it wasn't my intention for this thread to only be about this particular issue. I titled the thread so that other posters could state their opinions about what the worst problem is in Civ5 currently.

IMO this is the worst problem at the moment because every campaign at least one AI civ suffers from this problem, and it spoils the fun.
 
Optional, your screenshots from your game don't refute my point.
That is correct. Neither does your screenshot make a convincing point, because it are all just individual moments from games. Those pictures are only illustrations.

Looking at your Washington, it is very centraly located, with America already wiped out from the game. It is reasonable to expect a high amount of military pressure on America from the beginning of the game. America will likely have been in a situation where building workers was justifiably not the highest priority.
If you're saying Egypt, Polynesia and England had done better, some of those civs seem to have either started from a more insular position (Egypt at least) or have been the bullies instead of the bullied (Polynesia). It's too difficult for me to make guesses about the other ones just based upon this one screenshot.

It'll be easier for an AI on a lower difficulty to get into trouble. Their means are tighter. In the juggle between military needs and terrain management something's bound to lose out.
The AI should not have to cheat by receiving free Workers to improve its tiles properly.
Are you calling the bonuses the AI receives on higher levels cheats? I like to compare them to the handicap system a sport like golf has. Different rules for different players, mutually agreed upon. You can only talk about cheating when you break rules.

Are you having problems with the existence of difficulty levels in games in general? Most strategy games have them. The Civilization series has always had huge bonuses for the AI on the higher levels, it's nothing new.
It's not as much of a problem for players who play on the higher difficulty levels because the AI cheats and receives ridiculous bonuses such as free Workers. The only way for the Player to compete is to produce enough units to deter the AI from attacking, and shamelessly exploit Research Agreements to advance in the tech race. That ensures that higher difficulty campaigns tend to be relatively peaceful; fewer wars ensure that Workers aren't captured, therefore the AI can improve its tiles like it should.
This is pretty far off from how it really is. You're not forced to build military only to survive in the game, that was true for Civ III (CIv 4 I never played), but in Civ 5 you can still even build early wonders on the higher difficulty levels, just look at W A I N Y's Let's Play's, he will often have a go at the Great Library.
Research Agreements aren't crucial on any level, and I find them helping extremely little to keep the peace. Peace itself is not crucial either to do well on higher levels. It was in Civ III, but not in Civ 5. 1UPT has meant a huge nerf to AI military strength, this is well documented. There's much less to be afraid of.
You'll have a better chance to sign Research Agreements on the higher levels, as the AI has more money, but I normally use it for allying City States. I'm behind in tech most of the time, but as long as the gap doesn't get too big that's not too bad. It's much easier in Civ 5 to do well while not exactly being in pole position in the tech tree.

AI bonuses had a much more unbalancing effect in Civ III (again, I can't speak for the others, as I haven't played them), and the strategy path for the human player became rather narrow.
There could be potential worries in Civ 5 as well. If I'm looking at the obscene financial bonuses the AI gets, they only need to step up their efforts to ally City States and it would become impossible for the human player to compete for their favour. Then I would have a problem, because I don't like parts of the game being completely taken away from me.

How it is now, on higher difficulty levels the human player can still compete on all levels. Not on all levels at the same time, I mean you can't expand fastes, build the most wonders and have the biggest military at the same time, but that's not how it should be either.
But pick any strategy path you want to focus on and it can be a viable path. That you have to make some sacrifices in other departments is only logical and how making choices in strategy games should work.

I don't have any problem with Civ 5 AI bonuses. What problem would you have with your game, Soryn Arkayn, if the AI received an extra worker?

The only thing I'm getting concerned about if I'm reading your post is that you're stating that AI workers were better before the patch. But I can't say anything sensible about it, I only started playing this game in the summer and never noticed much of a problem.
I have no idea what could explain that change you've observed. I don't think there's anything in the flavours about workers. The flavours are for the leaders, not the workers.
I'm afraid all workers do the same thing, from whichever tribe they are.
An Iroquois worker is just as likely to chop a wood as any other worker, regardless of the Iroquois leader trait or their unique building. I don't see anything in the XML files that would point to different rules for different workers.
 
BTW, it wasn't my intention for this thread to only be about this particular issue. I titled the thread so that other posters could state their opinions about what the worst problem is in Civ5 currently.
Okay, I'm just seeing that line now. For me it's at least 2 things;

One is an absolute lack of care, which affects almost everything, from red blots on the landscape to electric lights in Korea's medieval leader scene, to all sorts of number in the game not adding up, etc.
Then Two, or maybe it's part of One, also carelessness involved here, diplomacy. A civ complaining when they settle next to you, a civ you have a declaration of friendship with but stealing your resources by buying your City States, similarly a civ not complaining when you do the same to them, that kind of thing. The list is long, these are just a few examples, but Diplomacy could be much, much better.
Tactical AI is always difficult, I'm mild in my opinion about what the developers have done here, I don't see it better in other games. Diplomacy on the other hand I've seen done much better than in Civ 5.
 
My biggest pet peeve with the AI at this point is the following outright tactical fails happen:

Most notable is when they treat civilian units (including GGs) as if they have military strength, hanging around warring units without an escort.

My biggest pet peeve overall however is just how unbalanced the AI can get, like on Prince\King how quickly it can take out its fellow AI unchecked on a continent (the AI have like no concept of ganging up on the powerful guy), to the point that you will still win, but only because the AI is sitting on way more gold than a civ should ever have.
 
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