Curse of the mongols

R

REDAF

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
34
First off, let me say, I have been a Civ Fan for many years and have enjoyed this game since it's launch. I have all the XBox Achievements and have won all four victory conditions on Deity, with Every Civ, except the Mongols.

Let the ranting begin...:mad:

Mongols
Begin the game with +50% Gold from captured cities.
Ancient Barbarian Villagers Join Us
Medieval +1 Cavalry Movement
Industrial +4 Hammers from Mountainous Regions
Modern Free Communism Tech

Starting Bonus:sad:
The Mongols start off with quite possibly the worst bonus in the game. It's nice to know that when you do conquer a city, you will be getting +50% more gold than you would have, but their other handicaps leave you so far away from capturing a city, you might as well not have a pre-game bonus.
This bonus may become useful someday, but is worthless as a starting bonus.

Ancient Era:cry:
The Second Bonus the mongols recieve allows for all conquered barbarian villages to become cities of your empire. This, at first glance, appears to give them a huge boost. We all know how many barbarian villages are out there, so it would appear that the Mongolians do not need settlers or code of laws to get an early jump on expanding their empire...
WRONG. This is by far the worst bonus in the game and is so bad, I am tempted to never achieve a Diety win with the Mongols out of spite! Here is why;
1.) Conquered Barb Villages become your city with a population of 1. Assuming you have a two food square within the 8, it will take 5 turns of growth before you can even build anything.
2.) With any other Civ, when you destroy a Barb Village, there is a Resource that pops in it's place. With the Mongols, you're city center is located on the Resource, which means it is lost forever.
3.) Barbarians Villages are randomly located by the computer at the start of the game.
Only 1 in 5 of these Villages (At Best) makes for a decent city location. It is not uncommon to have a Barb Village located in a spot with zero hammers and minimal food.
4.) If you do build a settler as the Mongols and have him build a city right next to a barbarian village, destroying the barbarian village still produces a city right next to your city.
So far, we are in the Ancient Era and have been blindfolded with our hands tied behind our backs, about to be bent over...

Medieval Era:confused:
+1 Horse Movement. WOW, now theres a bonus!! Now, assuming you've made it this far, your horses can move three squares instead of two. Ensuring that they are more susceptable to counter attack because they move that much faster than your defensive units.
Another waste of a bonus, though not entirely useless...

Industrial Era:nuke:
In game, the Bonus reads +4 Hammer to Mountaineous Regions.
On the Civ Site it reads +2 Food to Mountaineous Regions.

I believe the former is correct. This is a big bonus. With an Iron Mine the Mongols get 9 Hammers from each Mountain square. Plus a Factory and Communism, that's 27 hammers per mountain square. Take into account that a new city in the modern era starts with a Population of 5, if you haven't gotten too frustrated with Ghengis' B.S. by now, you could plop down a new city deep in the mountains that could be a production power house. Not to mention the bonus still applies to the rest of your cities that have mountaineous terrain as well...
By far the Mongols best bonus, certainly rivals some other Civ's bonuses as well. Unfortunately it comes so late in the game you have probably either given up or lost by the time it gets there...

Modern Era:rolleyes:
Free Communism Tech. I would assume that if you have gotten this far in the game, you are taking advantage of the Mountaineous Regions, have gotten or will soon get the Industrialization Tech for Factories. It would appear logical to switch to Communism the moment you get it to synergize with the Industrial Era Bonus. At this point in the game, I would imagine that you will be behind in the Victory Races and will need to break out the Can of Whoop A$$ to catch back up.


In closing, I would like to say that I hate to completely write off a Civ. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Learning to play a different style that takes advantage of each Civ's traits is a big part of what keeps me coming back for more. However, the Mongols feel broken to me. Their early game handicaps disguised as bonuses set you so far behind the eight ball, you might as well just play as the Barbarians.

Overall Ranking: 16th (Out of 16 Civs, Last place.)
Out of 10: 0
I would rather play Call of Duty than CivRev with the Mongols.
 
I agree that getting cities from barbarian villages can be both a blessing and a curse.

Personally, I don't pay much attention to the terrain bonuses as many don't kick in until mid & late game. Sure Rubber & Uranium are worth +4 production, but you won't get that bonus until almost the end of the game. So, the loss of the terrain bonus isn't a huge problem IMHO.

However, the potential for early expansion is enormous. I recently played (and won) a SP on King as Khan. I picked up two barbarian cities (one north, one south of my capital) with my first two warriors. I then went to science development in my capital to rush Horseback Riding, then to production to build a Keshik to quickly go out and capture barbarian villages. Doing so I amassed 10 cities spanning 75% of the landmass before the AIs had expanded beyond their capitals.

You can do this because the AI seems to concentrate on defense at the beginning. Therefore you can leave the ex-barbarian cities undefended. I wouldn't recommend this tactic on MP. (I did lose one under defended city to the Romans, but I flipped a French city which Nappy built in my territory.)

Yes, the size of the cities can be a real pain at the start. And if the location sux - don't take the village! I had one ex-barbarian coastal city which was very slow in growing until I built a Harbor. Another was in a cultural competition with Buffalo - immigrating 3 settlers fixed that issue. (I woulda flipped Buffalo if they hadn't built a wall.)

I guess I play Khan like I play Mao - overwhelm the AIs with cities. Except with the Mongols I don't have to wait to get Code of Laws to start my rampant expansion.
 
Eric,
Thanks for the Pep Talk! I love to get other opinions on how they manage their empires...

I disagree with your take on terrain bonuses as I find most of them extremely helpful. Not so much with Uranium and Rubber, because you're right, they come fairly late. But Bonuses like Wheat, Cattle, Oxen, Spices, Deer, Stone all come fairly early and can be like getting a free worker in your city. When you have one worker assigned to a tile that is giving you 4 or 5 resources, you are experiencing a virtual population increase. Some tiles are definately better than others, but maximizing terrain and city placement can often be the difference in a game. Something the Mongols are robbed of...

Your points on early expansion are right on, I fully agree with the "potential" for expansion. However, I don't feel that on Deity or MP the 10 Pop 1 Cities are worth taking. They drain more resources and make more enemies than one can defend. Plus it takes the infintile cites roughly 30 turns to become viable.

Another counterpoint on your mention of, "And if the location sux - don't take the village!" Herein lies the biggest problem with G Khan, 90% of the Barbarian Village sites suck as cities. So as the Mongols, you are limited as to how many Villages you can sack. Almost to the point where early exploring isn't even worthwhile, or an option.

As far as comparing Khan to Mao...
It's not even close for me. When I REX with Mao, each city in the Ancient Era is a Pop 3 and 4 in Medieval. (Which is where I usually find myself done REXing.)
Comparing that to Khan's REX where every city is a Pop 1 and virtually useless for 30 turns doesn't even compare. IMHO
 
I gotta disagree. I can tell theres somethings your missing from your bag of tricks. Mongols are actually my original civ when this game came out. I actually created a strong strategy that takes advantage of their traits. Now they are hard to play on line due to early rushes. But if your not getting rushed they are actually quite powerful. If not overpowered.

This is what Id do before throwing them away from your arsenal. Its always good to be and over all well rounded player.

Build 2 warriors for the first 5 turns and buy the 3rd for 20 gold.
For the next 5 turns tech horse back riding.
In this Ten turn period you shouldve caught some barbs. Roughly 1-3 maybe 4 but I wouldnt count on it.
With all the free cities that can work on hammer, let them hammer a wonder until you get Horseback.
All the free cities that cant hammer but can grow. Grow em to 2.
Turn 10-15 build a horse in your cap. Now any city that you had that was working on hammers changed them to horses. Sometimes your lucky and by turn 15 u have a hammered horse army.
Keep those hammer cities hammering till you get a second horse army Than set them to grow or tech.
In the mean while those 3 warriors 2 horse armies are getting more barbs and capturing enemy caps or new cities(50 percent trade increase) or capturing settlers. At the same time those keshik armies are gonna be protecting everything due to 3 movement.
Those hammer cities can keep making horses or you can make one warrior to prevent walkins.

Thats the ancient era way of playing them. Teching should be self explanatory in the ancient and what techs you need are up to you but this is what I do.

Horse back
Pottery
Masonry
Irrigation(get all those cities up one if you can)
Bronze ( By this point its the best time for them to build ARchers or you can simply get this as 2nd tech which is way safer and less of a head ache)
 
GhostCiv

Thanks for the advice...

When performing this horse rush, a novel idea btw that I hadn't even contimplated, do you not find that your horse armies are vulnerable to counter-attack? Do they have enough strength to take a city fortified by archers? I guess if you were attacking from a hill and had managed to get a promotion or two the odds would be a bit more in your favor.

My biggest problem with the Mongolians has been getting past the medieval era without getting frustrated enough to through the controller through the screen. I will try this, more aggressive approach and attempt to smash my way to their huge Industrial Era bonus...:goodjob:
 
REDAF said:
GhostCiv

Thanks for the advice...

When performing this horse rush, a novel idea btw that I hadn't even contimplated, do you not find that your horse armies are vulnerable to counter-attack? Do they have enough strength to take a city fortified by archers? I guess if you were attacking from a hill and had managed to get a promotion or two the odds would be a bit more in your favor.

My biggest problem with the Mongolians has been getting past the medieval era without getting frustrated enough to through the controller through the screen. I will try this, more aggressive approach and attempt to smash my way to their huge Industrial Era bonus...:goodjob:
Click to expand...

Not everyone build archers and I would add that a keshik army beat a normal archer. If you got a hill, then it's pretty sure, and what you can do is stealing unguarded settlers. You can press the enemy by doing this, forcing them into building more units instead of buildings, and with the 3 movement you would avoid counters if you keep rolling with the keshik army(ies).
 
Morte,
Do Keshik Armies get an attack Bonus? Or are they only Horseman with different names?
 
I believe the saying goes, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth!"

Any bonus is certainly worth having. My trouble is properly utilizing this particular Civs strengths. Will try again using the tips listed above. Thanks again...

Time to let loose the dogs of war!:mad:
 
REDAF said:
I believe the saying goes, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth!"

Any bonus is certainly worth having. My trouble is properly utilizing this particular Civs strengths. Will try again using the tips listed above. Thanks again...

Time to let loose the dogs of war!:mad:
Click to expand...

Mongols aren't really a good civilization but they can do a good job with keshik.. Keep pressing with them and keep moving
 
ZSOZSO (LED ZEP FAN?)
Thanks for the links.
MadDjinn makes reference to another, Mongol beginning strategy article in both the provided links. Would you happen to have a link for that one as well? If not, I can search the 2K forums...

Thanks again.
 
REDAF said:
GhostCiv

Thanks for the advice...

When performing this horse rush, a novel idea btw that I hadn't even contimplated, do you not find that your horse armies are vulnerable to counter-attack? Do they have enough strength to take a city fortified by archers? I guess if you were attacking from a hill and had managed to get a promotion or two the odds would be a bit more in your favor.

My biggest problem with the Mongolians has been getting past the medieval era without getting frustrated enough to through the controller through the screen. I will try this, more aggressive approach and attempt to smash my way to their huge Industrial Era bonus...:goodjob:
Click to expand...

You can take out archers armies if you make a good amount of veteran keshik armies. 5-6 armies can overwhelm a city. If you cant take the city after your first turn of attacking you can run right over to another city. +3 is really a nice way to run over the land.

Dont forget you wanna pick at weak targets and use that to your advantage. Take settlers weakly defended cities etc. You dont wanna get the win with horses just help pave the way.
 
I played a FFA today with mongols, against Zulu, Aztecs and Americans (I tought like WTH)

However, I started in a island with chinese. I killed them with a warrior army (AI) and got meanwhile a city. I started expanding like a normal civ, growing to 3 population and in 5 turns getting a settler, then grow, build settler, etc.. I had like 7-8 cities in the island but it was pretty good, with Beijing having already 4 population and 50% trade bonus like democracy. I had irrigation before the Zulu and Aztec and I had 8 technologies while they had 2, expanding in this way. Then I got an artist but couldn't use it, and got knight's templar with a galley and explored to the mainland, next to my capital. At the start, zulu conquered americans then I could see their capital with archers. I took a hut next to their capital and got school of confucius (is this spelled well?). I got another artist and scientist, but only now I could flip Washington. I did and bot of them quit. However I was having industrialization by 200 AD like I usually do with every civilization
 
GhOsTCiV said:
You can take out archers armies if you make a good amount of veteran keshik armies. 5-6 armies can overwhelm a city. If you cant take the city after your first turn of attacking you can run right over to another city. +3 is really a nice way to run over the land.

Dont forget you wanna pick at weak targets and use that to your advantage. Take settlers weakly defended cities etc. You dont wanna get the win with horses just help pave the way.
Click to expand...

Building 5-6 keshik armies is a waste of time. Just go for knights or anything else. Perhaps 10 legions armies with a road, like romans. Or maye you can just build 3 keshik armies plus the support of legions, but building more, perhaps without barracks is a waste of time.
 
Morte, you're killing me with your double speak...
5-6 Keshik armies is practically the same as 10 Legion armies in terms of hammers. How could one be a wast of time and the other be practical?

Wasting all those hammers in the early game on units that will be obsolete in 10 turns is all a waste of time. Especially when you consider that by the time you get them done, your target opponent probably already has Pikeman and or Rifleman armies in his city by the time you get there.
 
REDAF said:
Morte, you're killing me with your double speak...
5-6 Keshik armies is practically the same as 10 Legion armies in terms of hammers. How could one be a wast of time and the other be practical?

Wasting all those hammers in the early game on units that will be obsolete in 10 turns is all a waste of time. Especially when you consider that by the time you get them done, your target opponent probably already has Pikeman and or Rifleman armies in his city by the time you get there.
Click to expand...

No, every time I rushed using perhaps arabs with 10 legions armies, pikemen were not enough. I did this against greeks starting with pikemen also. And the other one won't have enough riflemen to stop legions, I'm sure. If he got a tech lead, simply use religion and veteran legions and from 6 it's 13.5
 
For those barb cities, why not grow it to a two pop and create a settler? Doesn't creating of a settler with a population 2 city cause the city to dissolve? If the production in the barb village stinks then just rush the settler production.

If you pick up settlers using this method, you "chosen" city locations can continue to grow without population losses associated with building settlers.

Just a thought, although I have never tried it out.
 
steeemer said:
For those barb cities, why not grow it to a two pop and create a settler? Doesn't creating of a settler with a population 2 city cause the city to dissolve? If the production in the barb village stinks then just rush the settler production.

If you pick up settlers using this method, you "chosen" city locations can continue to grow without population losses associated with building settlers.

Just a thought, although I have never tried it out.
Click to expand...

Steeemer, unfortunately in CivRev cities can neither be dissolved or razed. A city can not produce a Settler until it reaches Population 3.

Mongols suck. It's no wonder they were conquered.
 
I was playing a friend one night and somehow he managed to do it. He was playing the Greeks and early in the game this happened. He said it was due to buidling a settler too soon.

I saw the city before and after but didn't actually see it happen.
 
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