D&D - game or witchcraft?

[october]

I'll start this debate just to learn about it and see where it goes....

Dungeons and Dragons....is it just a game or is it more (evil, witchcraft, of the devil, etc)

Please shed light on this for me. I've played a little bit in the past but I never got really into it. I just purchased a computer game Baldur's Gate II that is based on the D&D game system. I understand that it is just a game based on fiction, but I know that to some people it is much more.

-october-

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by october
I'll start this debate just to learn about it and see where it goes....

Dungeons and Dragons....is it just a game or is it more (evil, witchcraft, of the devil, etc)
-october-

October, if individuals think stuff like D&D is devil worship, they are living in a more intense fantasyland than these game systems depict!

I find some of these notions to be very silly...

Some people will point a finger at anything rather than themselves when looking for a problem with life. I have heard
Of these Nazis who use religion to denounce various things like fantasy game systems...Ultra-Political correctness taken way too far.

There are some rather violent games systems and books out there, but the same thing goes for music, if it offends don't buy it...

Most D+D, Baldur's Gate, Harry Potter and Lotr are merely flights of fancy; People need fantasy to escape from life's mundane rat race.

I think anyone who has read Lotr will agree that's since Tolkien was a religious man, he put many subtle references to his faith into his great story...The epic of good versus darkness...need I say more?

I have read of these morally uptight citizens (many hailing from the USA, oddly enough) who started this debate before. They will use any excuse to control and herd their followers...even innocent stuff like fantasy. I recall Charles Manson used the Beatles as his excuse for his proposed race war and murders…lunatics will always find a scapegoat.

And to say witchcraft is in fantasy…well it is, because it is usually set in a medieval world, complete with dragons, demons, warriors, magic-users and yes. Witches.

What is wrong with witches anyway?

To round off, fantasy is a as varied as the world itself, so you can find nasty and kindergarten stuff if you look, or if the whole thing freaks you, ignore it…which would be a shame, I think everyone should escape the real world for a while.

You have to maintain the kid within folks!

And if worried christians want fantasy to suit them …well read CS Lewis, then!

 

[Six]

Only a day or two ago I was on http://www.religioustolerance.org when I came across an essay on D&D. The stuff it mentions about what some fundies have said is hilarious!

Apparently, playing D&D will give you, among other things:

Contract with Satan
Psychic powers
Mind control
The ability to cast Magic

I've been playing for years, and if I got these powers, I'd sure as hell play it a lot more! Now, how much do you think I need to play to be able to fly?

Direct link to the essay:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm

 

[Simon Darkshade]

D&D 3e is the work of the devil, whereas AD&D is simply a game.

Now, to be serious, it is merely a game, not witchcraft. I read, and heard firsthand, some pretty strange stories about the accusations thrown at D&D and gaming in general. But that was mainly a big phenomena of the 1980s, along with subliminal messages on heavy metal records inciting children to suicide.

There is no case to argue the D&D = witchcraft line. I know a multitude of good Christians who have been long time players, and they are most certainly not closet Satanists or weekend demonoligists.
In D&D, the vast, vast majority of the time is spent fighting evil, and serving good. The bad guys get whipped, and the world is saved for the sake of the children and plush animals.

If one teenager out there got into devil worship because of D&D, and I have yet to see any independent proof of this, then it does not mean that it is endemic and assured that all will follow that path.

It is simply ridiculous, IMO, and simply beggars belief.

As for Harry Potter being devil worship, or inspiring witchcraft, if someone ever seriously suggested this to me, I would burst out laughing for 48 straight ours, and then beat them to death and drink their blood at midnight in a pet cemetary in the middle of an abandoned fairground.

I think the people who suggest such things need to remove their head from the other end of their GI tract, and try living in the real world.

"Have you ever visited the planet Earth, Your Majesty?"


This extract from the essay Six linked encapsulates what I am against:

"Niilo Paasivirta has a fascinating Web page: "The Game of Satan: The Two Edged sword of Vengance [sic] agaisnt [sic] so-called 'role-players'" at http://www.co.jyu.fi/~np/gameofsatan/ He warns that RPG players will "become satan worshippers and cultists who practice black magic, ritual sacrifice, homosexuality, bisexuality, transvetitism [sic], voyeurism, semitism, communism, necrophilia, sadism, masochism, domination, marxism, darwinism, child pornography...flag burning, fetishism, atheism, islam...demonology, necromancy, jewishness, bondage, spiritism, fascism, anal sex, neo-nazism, ritual cannibalism, occultism, pagan religions, sorcery, sin, arson...satanism, witchcraft, shamanism, incest, adultery and sodomy, feminism, also they drink human blood, listen to heavy metal and rock music, promote evolution theory instead of creationism, use hard drugs and try to summon real demons...All of these victims eventually commit suicide or live rest of their lives in a mental hospital. Satan has taken their soul and they will burn in HELL for eternity!" His site has won many awards, including the Church of Xaos, Lame Site Award, Irritation Award and Cosmic Jackass Award. "

I don't think I have time, or the polymorphous perverse capacity to do all those at once.
(Interesting how its supposed to promote "neo-nazism" and "jewishness" at the same time)

 

[Pggar]

I think some people spend a lot of time without anything productive to do. They are looking for the devil eerywhere.

I have never thought about this sucject till last week when the weekly magazine I subscribe (a Brazilian magazine like Time or Newsweek) came with the report: The Church against Harry Potter". I didn't know if I should keep LMAO or should get worried with the amount of people supporting this nonsense.

I guess if anybody wants to worship the devil or practice witchcraft, they'll find a way to do it anyway. That doens't mean that every person that reads a fantasy book will want to become a witch or wizard.

As Simon said, those people supporting this "D&D & Harry Potter = work of the devil" idea should try to live in the real world because they seem to be in a completly different dimension.

 

[Glaurung]

"he put many subtle references to his faith into his great story"

hardly subtle...ever read the silmarillion and the like stories...

i play warhammer, and, as far as i know, i dont worship the devil.

but i am mormon

 

[damunzy]

Great link Six! Unfortunately some of it's links are dead. Oh well, that is the way of the internet.

october: I also play D&D and cannot find anything wrong with the game as it is written. How people use the game, as with anything in life, cannot be blamed on the designers. I myself am not involved in any type of "Devil Worshiping" or anything else that is "cultish" or of the occult. The general character I "play" is a do gooder that goes out of his way to help the fair damsle, even when she turns out to be not so fair!

Simon Darkshade: Come on now! Exceptional strength? WhoTF came up with that one? I like my streamlined every stat, whether it be Str, Dex, Con, etc. has the exact same bonus for the same rating. I personally could have made it better, but they didn't come to me.

Originally posted by Glaurung
i play warhammer, and, as far as i know, i dont worship the devil.

I remember a guy that played Warhammer. I think his name was.....Stellar Converter.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I too 'play' warhammer.

In answer to the question: I see as just a game

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Glaurung
"he put many subtle references to his faith into his great story"

Hardly subtle...ever read the silmarillion and the like stories...

i play warhammer, and, as far as i know, i dont worship the devil.

but i am mormon

What's your problem, Glaurung?

As you may have noticed from my previous posts, I cannot abide religion.
But I wasn't having a dig at religion or the great man (JRR Tolkien).

I was merely stating that there are some references in Lotr and I am aware of the silmarillion, thank you very much.

To believe in the devil means you must also believe in god, they are two halves of the same coin. I regard that whole ball game as non-existent...

Each to thier own!

Anyhow:

Fantasy is such a great genre in that I believe there is something in it to suit all tastes, if these nazi-fundies can't hack it, then they should go and read a bible (full of fantasy).

I see these moral attacks as a sad attempt to squash freedom to think, and to imagine other worlds...well we fought two world wars against people with that attitude.
I say to religious fundamentalists what Sean Connery said to the SS officer in last crusade:

“You goose-stepping morons should read books instead of burning them!”

 

[Hamlet]

Why is it that anything remotely fantastical is immediately branded as promoting evil by religious extremists? Some bible belt nutters have said that Harry Potter promotes witchcraft. These people really need to take stock of their lives, in my opinion.

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Hamlet
Some bible belt nutters have said that Harry Potter promotes witchcraft.

Hmmm, I wonder if they have anything to say about the Chronicles of Narnia or the Lord of the Rings?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

*Chuckle*
D&D = Satanism? Leads to Islam AND 'Jewishness'? Fascism AND Marxism? Oh, and the best of all...

...causes the player to believe in Darwinism instead of Creationism...

*Chuckle* I think it's pretty clear which of those two I believe, and guess what? I've been playing RPG's for about twenty years, from age 12 to now, at age 32.

In those two decades, I have never once attempted to divine mine or any other person's future, other than trying to outguess Murphy as far as what bad decisions in life to avoid. I have not engaged in satan worship, cults that practice black magic, ritual sacrifice, homosexuality, bisexuality, transvestitism [sic], semitism, communism, necrophilia, sadism, masochism, domination, marxism, darwinism, child pornography, flag burning, fetishism, atheism, islam...demonology, necromancy, jewishness, spiritism, fascism, anal sex, neo-nazism, ritual cannibalism, occultism, pagan religions, sorcery, arson...satanism, witchcraft, shamanism, incest, sodomy, feminism, also they drink human blood, promote evolution theory instead of creationism, use hard drugs and try to summon real demons...

Now I did take a few things off the list, because, hey, no one is perfect, but it seems to me that what I didn't do is a whole lot worse than what I did. Apparently it takes more than twenty years to get everything on the list done, or I am guilty of REALLY dragging my feet... Oh, and they put SIN on the list, like ANYONE is without sin...I mean COME ON!!

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
[B"I have not engaged in satan worship, cults that practice black magic, ritual sacrifice, homosexuality, bisexuality, transvestitism [sic], semitism, communism, necrophilia, sadism, masochism, domination, marxism, darwinism, child pornography, flag burning, fetishism, atheism, islam...demonology, necromancy, jewishness, spiritism, fascism, anal sex, neo-nazism, ritual cannibalism, occultism, pagan religions, sorcery, arson...satanism, witchcraft, shamanism, incest, sodomy, feminism, also they drink human blood, promote evolution theory instead of creationism, use hard drugs and try to summon real demons... " [/B]

Gadzooks! If ANYONE done all that stuff in a mere 32 years, they would be up for some sort of medal!

PS
Fearless, you play RPG?

I knew you were a man of impeccable taste!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I've played most of the published fantasy RPGs, many sci-fi ones, and a few from the White Wolf group. My favorite is a home-made RPG that I can't get anyone to play, so I've been playing 3rd Edition D&D the last six months or so.

In fact, the players in my campaign managed to finally, after about five years of playing, and almost fifty years of game time, and about 100 PC parties (high mortality rates at times) bring about the end of the First Age of Ergos, and re-awaken the Dead God Tranios. That age lasted 15,000 years.

So now I have to figure out what the main theme of the 2nd Age is going to be... and do a little revision on the maps, now that the six worlds of Ergos are joined... ugh. The life of a DM, work work work.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Hmmm, I wonder if they have anything to say about the Chronicles of Narnia or the Lord of the Rings?

The general ethos of these people seems to be "Use of imagination = bad", so I guess they wouldn't be too hot on either.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Actually, I think their main problem is total ignorance of the subject. If any of them ever sat down and played a game or two, they'd realize why we think they are so silly.

Ignorance appears to be the new enemy of man, or at least I am calling it such. I have tilted my lance at many targets, but from now on, I shall save it for the willfully ignorant, those who refuse to enlighten themselves so they can cherish opinions that are just plain silly in light of the facts...

Short list: evolutionists, communists, people who think Must See TV is a good thing...

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Actually, I think their main problem is total ignorance of the subject. If any of them ever sat down and played a game or two, they'd realize why we think they are so silly.

Short list: evolutionists, communists, people who think Must See TV is a good thing...

I am in agreement with Fearless. (should be a national holiday!)

I think these guys would enjoy stuff like CS Lewis' works, or some games from the White Wolf Line.

Bottom Line: You don't know something until you try it.

In this case they should give fantasy a try.

I also blame the commercial media on TV for mass ignorance too.
Luckily, I don't have one of those flickering nuisances in my home...Books are better.

Dec 30th is Fearless and Enemy Ace Agreement Day!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Wasn't it the 5th seal where it went...

'...and the angel broke open the 5th seal, and there was darkness, and then a bright light, and FearlessLeader2 and EnemyAce came to an accord, and the seas boiled, and children wept in fear...'

...or something like that?

j/k

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Wasn't it the 5th seal where it went...

'...and the angel broke open the 5th seal, and there was darkness, and then a bright light, and FearlessLeader2 and EnemyAce came to an accord, and the seas boiled, and children wept in fear...'

...or something like that?

j/k

As Douglas MacArthur once said:

"It is my earnest hope, and indeed the hope of all mankind, that from FearlessLeader2 and Enemy Ace's peace accord
a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of the past --
a world dedicated to the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for freedom, tolerance and justice."

 

[Simon Darkshade]

December 30th. A day which will live in infamy.
I can see it now. FL2 relaxing, and then the news comes on the wireless:

"We interrupt this programme to bring you a special news bulletin. Enemy Ace forces have attacked Earth by air, the President has just announced."

Sure, that is the fifth seal, but when the Seventh Seal is opened, it will reveal fire and brimstone, and Simon Darkshade playing chess with
Max Von Sydow, using various younglings as wizardchess pieces.
The black clad figure of Darkshade turns ominously, and pronounces with an awesome, dreadful sense of history
"Shut that bloody door! We're trying to have a game here!"