DA 03: Atheism vs. Theism

[Stolen Rutters]

We must believe in god because the end times are coming! I have read the whole of Revelations 12, and see that we are facing the time of troubles today. All twelve plagues are upon us right now! And it's not just good Christians who see it coming. Look at the central tenet of the Shia resistance to our occupation of Iraq. The Mahdi and great Jesus are going to come back hand in hand at the end of the time of great suffering to cleanse the earth. Look at Taoism! Yin, yang... All good things must come to an end, and all bad things must be cleansed. The balance must be restored. The ways of Confucious tell us to do good to our neighbor! And to top it all off, we want to come back as a higher being in the next life. You must also commune with the God and Goddess to be closer to the realm of nature. It is the realm of the inexplicable and unknowable, but you just have to believe.

It's all there. You have to see it. You must repent and/or commune and join the ranks of the chosen. Consider yourself warned. It's the eternal truth and you are running out of time.

 

[scipian]

There is no logic in religious beliefs so its going to be hard to defend it...

But here goes. Hmmm...

Where does our consiounse come from? Must be a soul!

(haha Thankfully I have thought about the oppsite point of view a lot.)

Soooo.... How do you know that's a conscience? It could just be environment. My dog always hides under the bed when she does something wrong (That's usually how I find out she did something wrong). She knows she's done wrong because I TAUGHT her good and evil.

 

[scipian]

Yet all early civilizations are religious, and all early moral codes are religious, and all atheist morals have a religious precedent. Find me just one example of an atheistic moral that was not first a religious one.

The liberal reform movement. This went contrary to all the established religions (slaves-obey your masters kind of view). This movement DRAMATICALLY helped the poor industrial workers and (correct me if i'm wrong) this movement was led by the atheistic liberals.

The simple fact that there will ALWAYS be something that we will not known is proof that there must be a God. We will NEVER be able to FULLY and COMPLETELY understand how things work, because everything has a divine origin and thus will always have an irreductible component that will remain forever outside the realm of our comprehension. Or else, if we were able to understand everything, then we would be able to understand God, and He would stop being God, then, wouldn't He?

The fact that I don't understand Calculus doesn't mean that there's some divine power behind it. The simple fact that we don't understand something doesn't magically mean that it is created by a god. It just means that we've not discovered the solution to the mysteries yet.

That's a nice theory. But so far we have found no proof of it being true. There's always been some mystery we didn't know and we've always progressed further and further along the path to discovery. There can be no way of knowing if comething is divine or just REALLY difficult to understand.

Assuming that there is a god, I see no reason why understanding his creation would stop him from being god. If he is all-powerful, he can surely stand a few scientists questioning his existence. Where in the bible is it said that the universe must be incomprehensible?

All I say is better safe than sorry. Since neither you nor I can be certain of what's after death, why not take the safe bet?

Even if I did, it wouldn't work would it? You have to actually believe in his existence and I don't. I don't think that my excuse, "I was baptized as a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, and Scientologist so i'm safe. You have to accept me, Father." would work.


that was very good. At first I really believed you were being serious

(thanks )

 

[scipian]

religion provides community, support, a sense of meaning, and morality. Religion binds people together.

God provides a safety net, even in ones darkest hours there is still a being that cares for you.

At someones birth no one would be very happy if you referred to someone's newborn as a meaningless spec life, and at someones death I imagine you would get some nasty looks if you called the deceased worm food(yet without religion that's what it boils down to). Religion gives humanity a higher purpose a semi-divine one in fact.

Religion gives many people a sense of happiness and most derive there morality from it. While atheists aren't necessarily immoral their world view is amoral. There is no reason for an atheists not to do something bad that will benefit them if there are no repercussions because they do not believe in a higher being that will punish them for their wrongdoings.

I'll be the first to admit religion doesn't have a squeaky clean track record, but i think it's safe to say most atrocities committed in the name of religion aren't really about religion, but rather and ulterior motive. Also the few bad apples shouldn't discredit all relgious, no more than science should be discredited when an invention can kill people.

Yes, religion can have beneficial end results. But those same results can be reproduced by patriotism, family bonds, community bonds, many other things. The religious, in theory, follow a close set of morality. But studies (i don't have them handy but can get them if need be) have shown that in practice the religiousness doesn't greatly affect the morality of a person. Also, religion is, by defintion, unprovable and incomprehensible. Yes, people may draw strength from religion. But that strength is just as real as belief that my doG is God (I'm dxylecix).

BTW- your comment about, "How would they feel if you said ..." is pointless. If I tell a tribal that the stars are big balls of burning gas instead of his ancestors, is that wrong? Science proves reality and religion states assumptions. Individual feelings have no effect on hard facts, In my book, 2+2=4 regardless of what the majority is CONVINCED of.

 

[Agarwaen]

We should do something like the old days of the Ottoman Empire, each religious group has their laws and follow then.
If someone don't fit in any group, then he will be punished by the religion of his father.
If all the family has no faith, so they are trying to follow no law, and that cannot be allowed.

Emperor Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia is God. Case closed.

Hey, the Ethiopian Emperors were Christians, they don't believed they were god

 

[Shadylookin]

Yes, religion can have beneficial end results. But those same results can be reproduced by patriotism, family bonds, community bonds, many other things.

perhaps, but religion helps many people confront things like inevitable death. Something that blind patriotism can't really make up for.

The religious, in theory, follow a close set of morality. But studies (i don't have them handy but can get them if need be) have shown that in practice the religiousness doesn't greatly affect the morality of a person.

maybe, but what if all of a sudden religious people lost all hope in religion and there moral system was crushed. Would they still be moral? irreligious people get morals from other humans, religious people get theres from on high. besides Philosophy has thus far failed to come up with a complete moral structure though many philosophers have tried. The average human doesn't have thousands of years to endlessly debate ethics, especially when they already know right from wrong from religion.

Also, religion is, by defintion, unprovable and incomprehensible. Yes, people may draw strength from religion. But that strength is just as real as belief that my doG is God (I'm dxylecix).

your belief in dog doesn't provide moral and social structures for entire civilizations for thousands of years. Religion, the belief in "higher" authorities, is ingrained into humans.

BTW- your comment about, "How would they feel if you said ..." is pointless. If I tell a tribal that the stars are big balls of burning gas instead of his ancestors, is that wrong? Science proves reality and religion states assumptions. Individual feelings have no effect on hard facts, In my book, 2+2=4 regardless of what the majority is CONVINCED of.

Science and religion aren't competing against each other. religion is there to uplift humanity, to provide meaning to existence. The human condition can't be explained from a science book it must be experienced. There are feelings and emotions to being human that aren't going to be easily explained away by cold hard facts. Religion is one example of deeply held convictions within humanity. Even scientists and doctors have "ethics" you'd be hard pressed to find scientific data analysis of such ethics.

 

[MjM]

Well, dying and nothing happening would suck. Afterlifes in Theism are nice, and probably the biggest pull to them.

 

[Kyriakos]

Just to note that 'theism' [if such a word exists in english (?) ] is a very low value word, since whereas atheism is fine since it comes from theos (god) and a- (lack of), the opposite would be en-theism (theos + en-, en meaning to have).

 

[Birdjaguar]

Science and the quantification of things, based on reason and logic, are the pinnacle of the human experience and the source of everything that should be valued. The value of an individual to society should be based on their contribution to this discovery process. Those who cannot contribute directly in the discovery process should be available to contribute as source material for the research of others. Emotions and non quantifiable experiences should be eliminated from the human condition to focus our efforts on the revelation of truth.The intergration of programmed AI into humans should be our next goal so that our baser genetic tendenacies can be over ridden and controled by electroncs. Let reason rule!

 

[Kyriakos]

It is not possible to take out 'emotion' and leave 'logic', for the same reason you could not take out the terrain and leave the building above it, or rather a tiny part of the building itself. Logic arises out of emotion, and is formed inside it, albeit in a way which makes it be sensed as something different from it. Let us not forget that we use terms which mean largely different things to each of us.
We could not continue thinking of an equation if we didnt maintain the ability to have a world of thought, but the ability to have a world of thought is not maintained by the specific use of it in being able to think of equations

 

[zxcvbnm]

Humanity has always had its foundations on religion. Religion makes people act morally and care about those who deserve to be cared about. That's why all people who work in the government should be religious

 

[Perfection]

God alone is.

 

[Fifty]

It seems possible that God exists, and as such, via a version of the Ontological Argument, God exists.

 

[Perfection]

It seems possible that God exists, and as such, via a version of the Ontological Argument, God exists.

Is He the type of God that wuvs us?

 

[Fifty]

Is He the type of God that wuvs us?

He posesses every possible attribute, so I guess so!

 

[Gogf]

I have really, really, really strong faith that God exists.

 

[Perfection]

He posesses every possible attribute, so I guess so!

So He's impotent and fertile?

 

[Fifty]

So He's impotent and fertile?

Yeah, that's kinda part of the reason why, if i were to play devils advocate on my devil's advocate position (i.e. if i were just sayin' what I really think), I thin that "it is possible that god exists" is false. At least, its much in need of specification with regard to exactly what is and what isn't an attribute.

 

[Swedishguy]

Theism is the backbone of civilization! It promotes character, which is the essence of strength. And don't talk with me about how God is, if there really was a god he would have unknown qualities we would never understand.

 

[azzaman333]

God did it.