Dangdest Thing

[Doolsey]

I was being very good, had never razed anything, never demanded tribute, never even started a war. But when I sent a boat with a settler in it through
English waters, suddenly I got a popup saying I lost my supply of ivory and I discover that I am now somehow at war with England. I resolved that matter in a few turns, but then everybody kept talking about my betrayal of England.

I didn't betray England! I swear! I didn't declare war!

Has anything like this happened to you?

 

[Sybot]

No idea, maybe they declared war on you, and because you had units in thier territory it counted against you. Sorry I can't be any more help.

 

[Pentium]

Here's my theory:

You were at war with England. Then you signed peace, and as a part of the same deal, you signed a MA with England against some other civ. Then you signed peace with that other civ, breaking the MA and the whole peace deal.

 

[Gilder]

Perhaps some mutual protection pact went into play?

 

[mastertyguy]

Perhaps they asked you to leave or declare war (even tough a settler in a boat isn't really dangerous, it is possible), then you said "that's it, good bye" (it declares war in this situation) and accidently accepted the "do you want to declare war?" message (just touching enter is enough). Possible.

 

[Padma]

Was this late enough in the game that they might have had submarines? You cannot see their submarines (without e.g., a Destroyer), and could have "attacked" it unbeknownst to you.

 

[automator]

I've had AI civs just "declare war" with no previous trouble.

Latest time was a regent game: Germany was my buddy through the AA and halfway through MA. They were sandwiched on a continent between two of my chunks of territory. We had trades going on, we'd allied against England ... out of nowhere a stack of calvary show up next to my city, an advisor pops up saying "Germany declared war on us" -- they'd made the mistake, however, as within 10 turns I'd eliminated them from the continent and left them with one city on a lone, arctic island.

But I'm still wondering "why?".

 

[TomOC]

I've had AI civs just "declare war" with no previous trouble.

Latest time was a regent game: Germany was my buddy through the AA and halfway through MA. They were sandwiched on a continent between two of my chunks of territory. We had trades going on, we'd allied against England ... out of nowhere a stack of calvary show up next to my city, an advisor pops up saying "Germany declared war on us" -- they'd made the mistake, however, as within 10 turns I'd eliminated them from the continent and left them with one city on a lone, arctic island.

But I'm still wondering "why?".

Theory:
Were you trading GPT. If the AI is put in a position where they would be unable to pay you the GPT (eg: Germany is at war with another Civ that took some of it's cities, causing it to loose income), they will declare war in order to break the deal, even though it does not make sense for it to do so. It goes to war because it can't afford the payments.

 

[Renata]

Sounds like you had your ivory trade linked to a peace deal with England. Between turns, your deal was broken somehow*, which caused the peace deal also to be broken. (If any part of a deal cannot be upheld, that cancels the entire deal.) England therefore was returned to a state of war with you.

* Possibilities:
-- another civ at war with you or England pillaged an ivory tile or destroyed the road linking it to the capital (yours or England's -- not clear from above who had the ivory).
-- another civ destroyed or sold a harbor through which the trade was going. Depending on who had harbors and who didn't, this wouldn't necessarily even have to be a harbor in either of your territories.
-- a civ with which both you and England were at war blockaded a critical harbor, coastal tile (before Astronomy), or road by which the trade was going. The blockade might be by galley(s), land unit(s), or cultural border expansion. Barbarian galleys and land units can also block trade routes, as you and all AI civs are by default at war with them at all times.

 

[TomOC]

Barbarian galleys and land units can also block trade routes, as you and all AI civs are by default at war with them at all times.

Who would take the rep hit for the deal being broken? I know if I broke the deal I would take the hit, and if the AI broke the deal, it would take the hit... but what if it is broken by a barbarian in neutral waters?

 

[oldStatesman]

Who would take the rep hit for the deal being broken? I know if I broke the deal I would take the hit, and if the AI broke the deal, it would take the hit... but what if it is broken by a barbarian in neutral waters?

If you were giving any thing over time - i.e luxs, resources, or gpt in exchange for hard goods, then you will take the hit regardless if a third party breaks the route. In the eyes of the aI you are guilty of not fulfilling your end of the deal.

There is a very good article on trading rep in The War Academy that explains all the nuances. I will no longer make certain trades early in the game because of this. It's cash and carry only if I want to buy a lux or resource, and I will not give out any hard goods at all to others. If a partner only has only one port, or one road connecting their capitol, it is a risky trade - you can loose your rep for the rest of the game through no fault of your making. I will not trade luxs or resources until the partner has at least two ports and two separate routes into their capitol. And is strong enough that I feel they will not be overrun by any enemies. I have had my rep broken because one civ takes out another - the turn before they took the capitol and eliminated them they broke a trade route from the victim to me and I was screwed the rest of the game even though that civ was long dead and buried. (BTW, I didn't even know it for another 50-80 turns - only one other civ had contact with the defeated, and my rep was fine until they contacted other civs and taddled on me.)

 

[Renata]

To elaborate on the last post, I believe that if the trade is straight up 20-turn goods for 20-turn goods, neither civ incurs a rep hit if the trade route gets broken, on the logic that both sides were delivering equal value each turn. (I'm not 100% sure about that, though, since it's been a long time since I've had such a trade get broken.)

If either side of the trade includes hard goods, (techs, gold, maps, contacts), then the other side gets a rep hit when the route breaks, the logic here being that the second side has failed to deliver the equal value that it promised. This part I'm certain of. I'm not positive what happens if both sides include both hard goods and per-turn goods, although my guess would be rep hits all around, since I doubt the game engine is sophisticated enough to calculate exactly who came out on the short end of the stick financially.

I should read the War Academy article again myself, though -- do take note of my sig.

@ oldstatesman:

... I will not give out any hard goods at all to others.

What's the logic here? I can somewhat understand not giving hard goods for luxes, resources or even gpt -- if the AI gets their resource disconnnected or is eliminated, they may not be able to hold up their end of the deal -- but for cash or techs?

 

[oldStatesman]

What's the logic here? I can somewhat understand not giving hard goods for luxes, resources or even gpt -- if the AI gets their resource disconnnected or is eliminated, they may not be able to hold up their end of the deal -- but for cash or techs?

I have had my rep broken because I was giving out hard goods - (lux, ivory in this case) - took cash and a tech for the deal in return - no gpt - and the trade route was broken by a third party war. I took the hit.

I an now very cautious when it comes to trades. Once out of the middle ages, I am less so - less chance of a route being broken unexpectedly as I can see most of the world by then. But in the AA I will only trade with 'safe' civs. Besides, I find that even though I lose gpt or cash for not selling things, it also helps slow down the aI research as they must increase the number of entertainers to stay happy, or keeps them from building more modern units that need strat resources thus weaking them militarily. Of coarse, if I was in desparate straits I would trade anything just to survive and to heck with my rep - but so far I have not been down that badly. I am getting pretty good at making money in the early game- I find that this skill - and a large bank balance - makes up for a lot of other things.

 

[Renata]

I have had my rep broken because I was giving out hard goods - (lux, ivory in this case) - took cash and a tech for the deal in return - no gpt - and the trade route was broken by a third party war. I took the hit.

Oh, in most discussion of trading issues that I've seen, "hard goods" is limited to tech, cash and maps -- things that you trade up front. Everything else is per-turn goods (and of those, all but gpt are subject to early cancellation occasionally). Hence the confusion.

 

[oldStatesman]

Oh, in most discussion of trading issues that I've seen, "hard goods" is limited to tech, cash and maps -- things that you trade up front. Everything else is per-turn goods (and of those, all but gpt are subject to early cancellation occasionally). Hence the confusion.

Cool. My bad for not realizing that and explaining. I don't call techs, workers, or cash 'hard goods' because you don't need a trade route to trade them - only contact. To me, hard goods are anything that requires a physical route - luxs and resources. The first are trades that can only be broken by my or the trading partner's choice - the second can be broken by third parties out of our control, hence are risky.