[C3C] Decent Request and Question

[CivFan94]

Hello CivFanatics!

Lately I’ve been working on mod for my personal use. However, i stumbled across the wall. Problem are phantom resources. I read threads about it, aswell as threads how to add resources but i’m having big time problems adding them to resources.px. Even thought instructions were crystal clear somehow i couldn’t do it as it was written in threads. Please excuse my ignorance. So, i am looking for someone who is interested in helping me to arrange resource.px rows in this particular order:

00 Horses
01 Iron
02 Saltpeter
03 Coal
04 Oil
05 Rubber
06 Aluminium
07 Uranium
08 Camels
09 Elephants
10 Gold
11 Diamonds (Gems)
12 Silver
13 Quarry
14 Pigs
15 Cattle
16 Corn
17 Rice
18 Wheat
19 Mustangs
20 Wool
21 Sugar
22 Incense
23 Wines
24 Tea
25 Coffe
26 Cotton
27 Silks
28 Tobacco
29 Dyes
30 Spices
31 Furs
32 Olive oil
33 Tropical Fruit
34 Whales
35 Fish
36 Shellfish
37 Pearls
38 Seal
39 Peat
40 Alligators
41 Date Palms
42 Oasis
43 Potatoes
44 Fruits
45 Game
46 Big Game
47 Llamas
48 Berries
49 Marble
50 Hardwoods

I would prefer standard icons from original C3C and if it is needed i can provide other icons which i found in other resource.px files from various mods. I am sincirely hoping someone would be nice enough to help me with it

Now, to the other question. I am almost hitting buildings limit (256 IIRC), so i was wondering will game crash if i delete buildings from original C3C (i am mainly looking to delete spaceship parts etc.)?

Excuse my poor English, it is not my native language

Best of,
Civ3Fan94

 

[Oni Ryuu]

You can only have a combined maximum of 32 Strategic and Luxury resources.
Bonus resources must be placed after Strategic and Luxury ones.
You can delete whatever building you like except for the capital building.

 

[CivFan94]

I understood phantom resource bug and arranging resources, actually I am having big time problem implementing icons from various resource.px files to my own since i lack any photoshoping knowdledge. I have intention to use resources 00-31 from my previous post as strategic or luxury ones.

Thank You for answering me building question.

Best of,
Civ3Fan94

 

[Civinator]

Hi CivFan94, I remember your post in the CCM thread. The list with your resources for me sounds somewhat like a combination of CCM2, RARR and Yoda Power´s Giant Earth Map. As the next version of CCM2 will also include the files for playing RARR, the next pcx-resource file of CCM2 covers 44 of your 50 resources (only 13 Quarry, 16 Corn, 19 Mustangs, 43 Potatoes, 47 Llamas and 49 Marble are not in it).

As Oni Ryuu posted, the easiest way to avoid the phantom resources bug, is to set the strategic and luxury resources to the first 32 slots in the editor (there can be less than 32 strat./lux. resources, but you shouldn´t add more, otherwise avoiding that bug will become much more complicated). The last versions of the Quintillus editor give you a warning, if the setting of your resources will trigger that bug. Decisive is the sequel you give to these resources by adding them in the editor - not by placing them in the resources pcx file. Of course, if you have the same sequel in the graphics of your resource.pcx file and in the editor, this is o.k., too.

As nearly all resources you need, are covered in the next CCM2 resources pcx file, I attache it as a zip file to this post (the resource shadows file is not attached to this post, as it is not ready yet). The resources in that file don´t trigger the phantom resources bug. Please note that incense and elephants in the settings of the next CCM2 version are strategic and not luxury resources. If you want to add more than the existing C3C luxury resources to your mod, please don´t forget, that the luxuryicons_small file in the city screen folder must be modified, too. If you have problems in doing these modifications: I hope the next version of CCM2 can be released this summer.

 

[CivFan94]

Hello Civinator!

Yes indeed, most of ideas for my personal mod came mainly from CCM2 and Anthony Boscia’s Worldwide. And, actually I am finishing map 180x220 based on Yoda Power’s Giant Earth Map. (Not big fan of Naval Warfare so that is reason why I am trying to cut water tiles but keep same landmass, will use LM Terezin to prevent early contact between “old” and “neće” world) His accurate resource placement will help aswell since he implemented it already.

IIRC incense in CCM2 represents all goods in desert, my idea was to divide incense as luxury and camels as strategic resource. Further down there will be distinction between granaries such as wheet and corn. Actually idea is to use 00-21 resources as strategic ones for various buildings/units. Also there will be same type resources showing up at different times like in Rhye’s mod.

Also, i have idea of implementing mercenary units. And individualising tech tree if not for each civilization then for it’s culture group. And adding religion that were used before monotheistic ones, aswell as using correct historical goverments.

So, if i have understood You corectly it doesn’t matter where resources are placed in resource.pcx file but in editor under Natural Resources tab?

Best of,
Civ3Fan94

 

[Civinator]

So, if i have understood You corectly it doesn’t matter where resources are placed in resource.pcx file but in editor under Natural Resources tab?

Yes, that´s correct! In the next version of CCM2 the resources Camel and Incense are separated again for compability reasons with RARR. As you can see in the screenshot below, the strat. resource camel uses the graphics of no. 30 in the pcx.file, but it is placed in position 9. As nearly all the resources you want are in the combined CCM2/RARR resources file, I added the missing graphics Quarry, Corn (from AoI), Potatoes, Llamas and Marble to the pcx file and attache it to this post. For the resource 'Mustangs' you can use the graphics for the resource 'Horses' again.

You can do a check of your resources with one of the last two versions the Quintillus editor (so you need an older version of Java to run it), and this editor will warn you automatically when there is a phantom resource setting in your resources.

So you let 'most of the water run out' from the Giant Earth Map. This sounds interesting and I´m curious, how such a worldmap will look in the game. May be you can post here a screenshot (at least of the minimap).

 

[CivFan94]

Wow Civinator! Firstly thank You for clear explanation, and second big thank You for another resource.px file. I was planing to download your’s prevoius one this weekend (due busy schedule during working week) and give it another try to implement missing ones, but You already did it in post above .

Sure thing, about World Map, I will try to finish it and upload this Sunday. Missing Australia and part of islands around it only IIRC. Honestly, it does look quite funny, but after I implement land mark tricks like in Rhye’s mod and wheeled flags for some naval units it should serve the purpose.
After all, every tile on Map is leading to longer time to wait in between turns due repetitive calculations in game engine. On top of that naval vessels in C3C are absurdly slow. Few years ago I read in some historical book that there was an old rule of thumb in the middle ages of 1/7/23. That means that a journey that takes 23 days by walking will take 7 days by horse and 1 day by sailing along the cost. I have intention to implement this system in game.

Best of,
Civ3Fan94

 

[Balthasar]

So how far, back then, could they walk in 23 days?

 

[Blue Monkey]

So how far, back then, could they walk in 23 days?

Excellent question.

A brief bit of trawling came up with this:

Quotation from the Talmud:

How far can an average person walk on an average day? One can walk ten parasangs (parsaot), which are forty mil. This is divided in the following way: From dawn until sunrise one can walk a distance of five mil, and from sunset until the emergence of the stars one can walk another five mil. There are thirty mil remaining that one can walk in a day: Fifteen from the morning until midday, and fifteen from midday until evening.

Like most pre-industrial units there is a lot of variation in what those would equate to in modern distance measures. From what I can track down, 1000 meters (1 kilometer) = 1 mil would be a reasonable average. AFAIK typical practice for coastal journeys on small vessels was to sail in daylight & put in to shore at night. The equivalent walking distance would be 30 km from sunrise to sunset. In school I learned the quick conversion that 10 km = 6 miles. 18 miles in a day. I've walked 18 miles & was done, done, done. For about a week. But I wasn't habitually walking every day the way a trained military would.

According to quora.com A Medieval army could march between 10- 25 maximum per day depending on road conditions & other limiting factors.

From Napoleon's Strategy & Tactics website "Napoleon's troops traveled light, marching 15-50 km a day without any cumbersome baggage trains as they lived off the land. " & as they quote Napoleon himself "The best marchers should be able to do 25-30 miles a day." This was considered unusually fast/far by his contemporaries.

Given those various calculations - imho - 20 miles sustained march would do as a nice round figure for purposes of Civ3. How many tiles that equates to would depend of course on the scale of the map used.

 

[Vuldacon]

Hey Blue Monkey... I am tired just reading your Post But good information for use.

 

[Balthasar]

Thanks, Blue. If we assume that 20 miles a day is about average, we could assume 140 miles in a week, which is about the length of many civ games for one turn, and maybe twice that for horses and boats, and probably triple that for motor vehicles. Interesting!

 

[Civinator]

Given those various calculations - imho - 20 miles sustained march would do as a nice round figure for purposes of Civ3. How many tiles that equates to would depend of course on the scale of the map used.

In these calculations you forgot that the scale in the game is 1 turn (and not one day). This turn can be up to 50 years in the standard Civ 3 game. So the warrior in the first phase of the game wanders 20x365x50 miles = 365.000 miles in a turn.

 

[Balthasar]

Well, that's true.

 

[Vuldacon]

All depends on settings for the game.... which makes it all even more complex but that is the way of the Ninja
Good posts all... Happy to see imput here that says to me ... they are still interested and participating in our Great Site

 

[Blue Monkey]

You are correct, Civinator, about the time scale influencing the unit movement rate in a turn-based game such as Civ 3. My response was in direct answer to Balthasar's question "... how far, back then, could they walk in 23 days?". So, the correct answer needed to be in miles/kilometers/etc. per day. I chose to express it in terms of miles per day because of the context. 20 miles per day gives a round figure that can then be applied as a standard unit of measure for any time scale & any map scale.

Ultimately we need a movement rate expressed in tiles per turn for our purposes. Which leads to some more maths, and a general formula:

D x T / M = U should be the formula for whatever units of measure a scenario designer wishes to use - if I'm thinking correctly.

D = real world Distance traveled in one standard unit measure of time
T = Time per Turn expressed as some multiple of that measure. For turn times less than the standard unit of measure this would be a decimal fraction rather than a whole number.
M = size of a Map tile expressed in the same units as Distance
U = the number of tiles a standard walking Unit moves in one turn (before any terrain or other affects)

Applying this to the scale Balthasar's question prompted: map with a tile size of 20 miles and a turn representing one day this would be 20 x 1 / 20 = 1. The common walking unit would move one tile. We can also use the formula to figure out map scale.

Following on from that to a more complex situation, if we want to figure out what scale of map to use when a turn represents 23 days & the walking unit moves 1 tile per turn then with a bit of algebraic manipulation the formula is D x T / U = M. 20 x 23 / 1 = 460. The map should be designed with one tile being 460 miles across.

Similarly, starting from the map scale (distance per tile) it is possible to determine the length of time a turn should be to maintain accuracy. Just use a bit of algebra to rearrange the formula. Using the one tile per turn unit's rate of movement will help simplify the calculation, of course.

Any standard unit of measure for distance would work. The same goes for time. The key is to be consistent - use the same two units of measure for all variables. Taking an insect mod as an example: knowing how many centimeters an ant moves in one minute, and how many centimeters across a tile is, and how many minutes a turn is, you can calculate the ant unit's movement rate using the same formula.

This may help scenario designers who want to be very accurate about the relationship between map scale & time scale.

 

[Vuldacon]

Blue Monkey... Well said. One does have to adopt the position that the things moving are at a constant rate of Speed.
What about Zombie movement? Just Kidding

Truth is, most things do not travel at a constant speed continuously... so there is another factor
For example, how about Sail Boats... the wind is not consistent or constant... Many things to take into consideration... just too many variables so I suppose it is best to use your formula and as an average concerning more realistic Movements in Games.

 

[Blue Monkey]

What about Zombie movement?

Fast Zombies or Slow Zombies?

For example, how about Sail Boats... the wind is not consistent or constant... Many things to take into consideration...

Are all the paved roads in EFZI perfectly flat, even surfaced, with nothing such as oil slicks, rain, blood, or smeared zombie brains to affect movement rates? Are all four tires on every custom hot rod cranked out of the garage evenly & properly inflated? How about the grass - no weeds, clumps, bare patches, gopher holes, ... ?

"Granularity" is the word that comes to mind - there is a limit to the degree of detail that can be included at any particular scale. And in this sense many game constraints are granular - limitations of scale. We have to simulate all the ecozones & ecotones of the Earth & imagined worlds with what, about a dozen terrain types? We have to ask ourselves things such as "Is that 400 miles of terrain a mountain or a hill?" Cram hundreds of ethnicities into 30 civs & only 5 culture groups. "Is Tibet more Chinese or Indian?"

So it's all chunked together - averaged if you will.

 

[Vuldacon]

Fast Zombies or Slow Zombies?

... Both

Blue Monkey... Absolutely, Averaged Reality "chunked together" using your Formula is a Good way to assess and establish Unit Movements in games.

...I use what I call "Plausible Reality" and of course "Artistic License" in all versions of EFZI2.
One of the factors I enjoyed about working on what I wanted in the Game was/is not being limited to many absolute factors and was/am free to set things such as Unit Movements as wanted. Of course, basically The Game Map is divided into City Blocks rather than Miles and turn times are in Hours so the faster movements of Units is more readily accepted than if each Game Tile was 20 Miles plus turn times were years, as is the case in most epic Civ Games.