declaration of friendship: why engage in entangling alliances?

[revelation216]

I just so happen to be a Ron Paul supporter, he says don't get involved in entangling alliances (NATO for example), don't fight wars except to defend, just trade with other nations peacefully.

Obviously I ignore the part about defensive wars otherwise I'd never win Dom victories, but I think he is on the money when it comes to alliances, and that's how I play Civ. I don't see the point in DOFs, what benefit are they to me?

 

[apocalypse105]

The problem with the diplomacy system that the AI is to agressive and declare wars and denounces everybody as result it actualyl hurts you more to sign a decleration of friendship because everyone hates eachother


This friends and commen enemy system could work if they made it a bit more predictable lets say that when the game start a AI pick a other AI or more that he hates and he likes as result it is easier to sing friendships and conduct diplomacy

Like in civ 4 I remind that montezuma allways hated hatsepatsu..

 

[hung_h]

I played on King and noticed DOFs are not needed. However, I just started emperor difficulty and I just realized how important it is. For one, research agreements. Even "friendly" civs who are distant from me and are in another war on a pangaea map will declare war on me and break the agreement. If you got a DOF, they won't do that. Problem is that your ally will steal as much as they can from you if you leave any extra resources unattended or too much gold. Once you deny them it for one time, it will leave a permanent mark on your relations.

 

[headcase]

I have one game where I was part of a 4-way friendship, with China, Germany, and some peaceful Civ. IIRC, we got along until the Ren era, then Germany attacked the peaceful civ, then later China, then later me.

We were all pretty close to each other (China and I were touching borders, Germany might have been), and I can't help but think this DoF circle made them a bit slower to go to war for fear of angering their other friends. China got weaker near the end, but they had a comparable military up to that, pretty sure Germany was a good 20% stronger the whole time, and kept growing.

That's anecdotal though, it could have made no difference at all.

Spoiler :

Incidentally, I backstabbed China near the end to pillage their tiles and slow down their science victory while I was building Utopia. That worked but Germany was a powerhouse and made their space ship about 4 turns too soon.

 

[joncnunn]

Agreed with the first 2 posters.

Wars are now so common that if I were to DOF somebody half the AI players would not like it resulting in less gold selling my surplus luxuries & resources.

And even if there weren't, the AI treats the DOF as a license to beg for gold (or luxuries if you forgot to sell them) from you.
(I need that gold; I want to buy another city state)

 

[Ford]

...Problem is that your ally will steal as much as they can from you if you leave any extra resources unattended or too much gold. Once you deny them it for one time, it will leave a permanent mark on your relations.

If you know they are going to do that when you start the DoF, then it isn't stealing, it is part of the deal and must be taken into consideration before the deal is made.

I almost always agree with their wishes because
a) it's what I've reckoned with, part of the calculated deal,
b) they NEVER ask for anything that isn't possible,
c) the friendship boost is remarkable, you can have an ally until the end of the game,
d) they only ask you once, unless you refuse. Refusing will give you a diplo hit, and refusing repeatedly because you consider it stealing will make them start to dislike you, which isn't the point in DoFs. You're shooting yourself in the foot doing that.

The only exception I make is if they ask for GPT when I'm nearing the end of a GA, and will only do that once. Next time they come asking, they get everything they want.

 

[Aldor]

And even if there weren't, the AI treats the DOF as a license to beg for gold (or luxuries if you forgot to sell them) from you.
(I need that gold; I want to buy another city state)

And you steal their gold by selling them useless open borders every 30 turns and strategic resources they don't need either, so in the end it should balance out

I agree that the AI begging for resources is annyoing, especially if they do it the moment you connect it (so you don't even have a chance to sell it). However I see that as a minor problem. In my games (on prince) it seems that VERY often I can't trade excess luxuries because the AI simply don't have excess quantities themselves, and rarely have enough money to buy from me.

So fine, go ahead and beg from me, and give me a bonus diplo modifier

 

[Selous]

i find DoF to be a bad move in general, unless you are looking for a fight

 

[apocalypse105]

I played on King and noticed DOFs are not needed. However, I just started emperor difficulty and I just realized how important it is. For one, research agreements. Even "friendly" civs who are distant from me and are in another war on a pangaea map will declare war on me and break the agreement. If you got a DOF, they won't do that. Problem is that your ally will steal as much as they can from you if you leave any extra resources unattended or too much gold. Once you deny them it for one time, it will leave a permanent mark on your relations.

Well thats the problem every AI declares war and denounce eacother if they just hate their neighbours or the warmongers well then the denouncing and friendship system could actually work perfectly

 

[headcase]

c) the friendship boost is remarkable, you can have an ally until the end of the game,
d) they only ask you once, unless you refuse.

Cool, didn't know that.

 

[binhthuy71]

In my experience, the AI never asks for a Resource if you only have one of it. They also never ask for more than a quarter of your Gold. For that, you get Open Borders free, and if you get DoWd you can count on having some allies at your back. On Standard maps I usually sign 2-3 DoFs and I have no trouble with maintaining them through the game.

Yes, there are costs associated with DoF's but you don't get something for nothing - even in Civ.

 

[Smokeybear]

I see little use for DoF's. Keep your military up to snuff, and you can just avoid those leeching pilferers with ease. If you do think you have to have some buddies, best wait until you have LOTS of spare gold and luxes laying around unused. DoF somebody early on, and you can bet your booty they'll demand that new lux you just improved this turn, which you were depending on to sell so you could get your gold income out of the red for the first time in 20 turns. Early era DoF's will suck your lifeblood dry. Once I'm an established power, I might make some just to mess with the other bastidges as much as possible- not because they're actually helpful in any meaningful way.

For self protection, you're a LOT better off depending on your own military and fortifications, than fickle 'buddies'. You could have buddied up to some bloodsucking civ for millenia, and then the first time somebody else attacks you and you *dare* to fight back and take some of your attacker's cities.... ohnoes! My 'buddy' decides it's time to denounce me for a warmonger! Lovely. Kill 'em all. The only real buddies in civ are the ones under headstones.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Oh if you got a good GPT DO NOT get rid your gold if your in a DoF, had a game a where Napo asked me for 300gpt (about half my economy minus the GPT I'm getting for selling lux).
Also, I noticed that I get into less wars overall when I don't go into DoF's and that the less DoF's in game the less wars I see, in a game with DoF's everywhere I've always seen total war from around the rennaissance time.

As far as I'm concerned they should rename 'Declaration of Friendship' into 'Declaration of War with the other guys'.