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Decline of Celtic Europe?
- Thread starter Pangur Bán
- Start date
and what the hell do you think caused the famine? Blight did cause the famine but the famine wouldn't have been as much of a problem if people only had potatoes to live on because they were too poor to get anything because of paying rent to the landlords and were being kicked out of THEIR houses on THEIR land to die on the street
maybe not but it's heading that way. Bin taxes. VRT. Ugh.
yes. now. now. Now things are like the 80s but it's definitely heading that way unless someone does something and the government stop buying several million euro planes.
why would income tax have to come up if VRT went? they don't have VRT in France or Germany.
Seanirl, I'm from the north were the wounds of the past are constanly being reopened.
Get me drunk enough and I'll sing your song, but at the end of the day we were never innocent victims, we just could'nd get act together and got our ass kicked. This is the way it was everywere, reading history books and punching walls will only make you bitter and boring.
The Irish conquered scotland from the picts, had settlements in north wales and were constantly raiding the west coast. The anglo/saxons were invited into britian by vortigern to hold back these raids, albiet the picts and saxon pirites were also a threat.
If they had'nt run over southern britian the Irish probably would have, or at least had a go at it. We were no angels, just not organised.
A lot happened in the english conquest of ireland that any english man will tell you was disgraceful, but the england then is not the england of today.
As far as ireland being a third world country(?), i think your being a bit over the top to say the least.
Get me drunk enough and I'll sing your song, but at the end of the day we were never innocent victims, we just could'nd get act together and got our ass kicked. This is the way it was everywere, reading history books and punching walls will only make you bitter and boring.
The Irish conquered scotland from the picts, had settlements in north wales and were constantly raiding the west coast. The anglo/saxons were invited into britian by vortigern to hold back these raids, albiet the picts and saxon pirites were also a threat.
If they had'nt run over southern britian the Irish probably would have, or at least had a go at it. We were no angels, just not organised.
A lot happened in the english conquest of ireland that any english man will tell you was disgraceful, but the england then is not the england of today.
As far as ireland being a third world country(?), i think your being a bit over the top to say the least.
HAND
Armchair Philosopher
The Scots consider the Irish Republic as a "golden example of a Celtic Tiger economy" and basically the way to go. (I'll try and stay on topic, Celts! not Scottish devolution ) . I have heard that Ireland is doing well in with euro too.
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Indeed, a f****** one that is !
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
BTW Calgacus, I think you might be mixing culture and ethnicity.
The Cletic culture (such as the Halstatt one) expanded over large-areas that were not always celtic-inhabited.
This loose culture superimposed on previous ones and might give the wrong impression it was a unified world. Proto-Germans and some Slavs were not exactly identified as such and were incorporated in the celtic culture. One example would be the Cimbri and Teutones invasions. Teutonics were Celts but Cimbri were probably more of the Germanic type but still "incorporated" in the Celtic group. People in that area just had not really started to identify themselves in "pure" ethnic and cultural group (Germans did the smae later when they would incorporate vanquished tribes into their ranks). Another one would be the Celtiberians. The fact that the Belgae settled partly in Southern Britain and that later some Celticized groups were pusehd to the mountain or island "reserves" of Wales and Ireland does not mean these are "pure" Celtic people either. A DNA testing was made some years ago in Wales that proved beyond doubt that there was not much in common between Wesh and corpses of "Celtic" tombs of the Halstatt period in Central Europe. When Gallia became Roman, the dominant culture of this kind switched from Celts to Germans but does not mean an ethnical (very hypothetical) Celtic group disappeared. It just changed and assimilated.
The Cletic culture (such as the Halstatt one) expanded over large-areas that were not always celtic-inhabited.
This loose culture superimposed on previous ones and might give the wrong impression it was a unified world. Proto-Germans and some Slavs were not exactly identified as such and were incorporated in the celtic culture. One example would be the Cimbri and Teutones invasions. Teutonics were Celts but Cimbri were probably more of the Germanic type but still "incorporated" in the Celtic group. People in that area just had not really started to identify themselves in "pure" ethnic and cultural group (Germans did the smae later when they would incorporate vanquished tribes into their ranks). Another one would be the Celtiberians. The fact that the Belgae settled partly in Southern Britain and that later some Celticized groups were pusehd to the mountain or island "reserves" of Wales and Ireland does not mean these are "pure" Celtic people either. A DNA testing was made some years ago in Wales that proved beyond doubt that there was not much in common between Wesh and corpses of "Celtic" tombs of the Halstatt period in Central Europe. When Gallia became Roman, the dominant culture of this kind switched from Celts to Germans but does not mean an ethnical (very hypothetical) Celtic group disappeared. It just changed and assimilated.
Cullyn
red ones go faster!!
The blight led to the start of the famine, of that there is now doubt or argument. That the British occupation caused the famine is true (in fact I feel we should ultimately blame Raleigh, he introduced the spud to Europe thus changing the staple from Turnips to potatoes) but what you said was,
pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.
it is not a case of preference, at the time it was the poorest, the landless and labourers who communicated solely in Irish and it was this class which suffered the most in the Famine, a million died and a million left. Those who stayed and lived spoke both and as the language of the government and the language that was solely taught in the few schools was English the language used or shopping and conducting business changed. The main language in the cities at the time was already English and slowly the rural areas followed because they had too, plus after the famine Irelands population went into a decline. Before 1847 there was about 8 million living here, in the 1920s it was as low as 2.5 million. Those that kept the language alive just died off or emigrated.
So, without raising tax how does a government run these small things that it pays for? You know, Education? Health? Courts? Sanitation? Gardaì? Things like that. Tax is a fact of life. Get used too it.
They bought a plane for 10 million. That was it. As for us heading for what happened in the 80s, what sort of an eejet are you? First, there are a huge amount of reasons for the problems in the 80s. The give away budget of 1979 and the massive government borrowing that followed. Government borrowing to pay for everyday expense like public Service pay and Social welfare, unemployment of up to 25% at one stage, added to that a downturn in the world economy, very poor infrastructure and the fact that Ireland never recovered from the 1973 oil crises, when we lost most of our heavy industry. Today, we have an unemployment rate of 5%, which most economists regard as full employment. Government borrowing is low and only for capital spending, the national debt is the second lowest in Europe, in the past 5 years there has only been one that job creation has lower that redundancies (that is this year and it looks like it will roughly break even) and infrastructure developments and investment is going on around the country at a tremendous pace , like in my own city where over 200 million will be spent in the next 4 years on new roads, rail and drainage alone.
The screw ups of the 80s are in the past. We have learned from our mistakes and were lucky, and smart enough, to get and use the help of the EU to rebuild, develop and grow into a truly modern, well developed western state. A process that is never finished but one which is well under way. But then donkeys like you are too busy whinging to realise that.
Because France and Germany may have a low VRT but they have a high Income and Corporation tax. We have a high VRT, a low Income tax and a very low Corporation Tax.
I hate it when people say things like that
Very true. The only real thing that united (in a very rough sense) the Celtic tribes was a shared cultural identity. You only have to look at the languages of the Gaels and the Welsh to see the difference. The Celts were never a homogenous group with a definite social and political identity. They were a large group of tribes form different areas that shared a cultural identity through art, religion and tradition. In fairness to the Romans there qualities were the weaknesses for the Celts. Unity of purpose, discipline and ruthless efficiency where what led to the downfall of the Celts of Gaul, Germania, Spain and Briton. The Celts were pushed t the fringes of Europe because regardless of how many they could muster in a battle, they only very fought on there own, never collectively. And against the Romans that was suicide. Unless you had a forest on your side of course, and the Romans were led by an idiot, you could win then.
barron of ideas
Barron
I seem to remember the Roman idea was, if you could only win once, be sure it was the last battle.
@barron of ideas,
the Irish are not first grade haters, but we do suffer from a vocal minority of morons, who use a loose knowledge of history to moan about anything. Take a bow Seanirl, you have just reinforced just about every negative steriotype of the Irish. Please god I hope you don't live in a cottage.
@Calagus,
Some of the above posts illustrate well the answer. The Celts are a cultural group not really an ethnic one. Genetically I have much more in common with the anchient Irish builders of Newgrange than the Celtic invaders but culturally I'm totally Celtic. BTW there is no modern Celtic decline. The Irish, Scots and Welsh are Celtic and fiercly proud of it. I also know at least one Serb who considers himself Celtic. We're still here the Romans gone, I don't think we did too badly huh?
@Cullyn,
Go raibh maith agat a chara. Thanks for spotting this early and kicking Seanirl. Saves me the trouble. Your country thanks you.
Failte go CFC.
One last thing barron of ideas, looks like the Romans were wrong.
the Irish are not first grade haters, but we do suffer from a vocal minority of morons, who use a loose knowledge of history to moan about anything. Take a bow Seanirl, you have just reinforced just about every negative steriotype of the Irish. Please god I hope you don't live in a cottage.
@Calagus,
Some of the above posts illustrate well the answer. The Celts are a cultural group not really an ethnic one. Genetically I have much more in common with the anchient Irish builders of Newgrange than the Celtic invaders but culturally I'm totally Celtic. BTW there is no modern Celtic decline. The Irish, Scots and Welsh are Celtic and fiercly proud of it. I also know at least one Serb who considers himself Celtic. We're still here the Romans gone, I don't think we did too badly huh?
@Cullyn,
Go raibh maith agat a chara. Thanks for spotting this early and kicking Seanirl. Saves me the trouble. Your country thanks you.
Failte go CFC.
One last thing barron of ideas, looks like the Romans were wrong.
See a Serbian Celt.
No he isn't just a paddy who moved to Serbia he's a native.
Seriously Celtic culture is in no danger. When you have eastern Europeans finding out about their Celtic past, Two Celtic languages that are still living, We keep winning the Eurovision song contest and you have an Individual and easily recognised style of music and Art you have nothing to worry about. The Two most popular sports in Ireland are Gaelic games (hurling and Gaelic football), soccer only manging to come third ( though its probably the biggest in Dublin).
While Celtic influence may have declined since the second centuary BC but for a culture that is 2500 years old its not doing too badly is it?
German tribes invaded an Empire that was dying on its knees and that left the new kingdoms with an already built infrastructure and pacified citizens. The divided Celts faced a genocidal military superpower that was rising as a power and dedicated in purpose. The Celts inflicted many defeats on the Romans but even confederations of Tribes could not match the resources or Organisation of the Empire. It was not weakness on the part of the Celts but Roman might that sealed the fate of the Continental Celtic Kingdoms.
(BTW hi Alone, answered your PM)
No he isn't just a paddy who moved to Serbia he's a native.
Seriously Celtic culture is in no danger. When you have eastern Europeans finding out about their Celtic past, Two Celtic languages that are still living, We keep winning the Eurovision song contest and you have an Individual and easily recognised style of music and Art you have nothing to worry about. The Two most popular sports in Ireland are Gaelic games (hurling and Gaelic football), soccer only manging to come third ( though its probably the biggest in Dublin).
While Celtic influence may have declined since the second centuary BC but for a culture that is 2500 years old its not doing too badly is it?
German tribes invaded an Empire that was dying on its knees and that left the new kingdoms with an already built infrastructure and pacified citizens. The divided Celts faced a genocidal military superpower that was rising as a power and dedicated in purpose. The Celts inflicted many defeats on the Romans but even confederations of Tribes could not match the resources or Organisation of the Empire. It was not weakness on the part of the Celts but Roman might that sealed the fate of the Continental Celtic Kingdoms.
(BTW hi Alone, answered your PM)
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