pineappledan 4UC report card thread

[pineappledan]

4UC does the following:
Adds a new ability to legion (faster improvement speed when near a GGeneral)
Moves the ability to build fishing boats without being expended from the Polynesian UA to a new UU
Removes the Roman colosseum to replace with a (modified) version of the Villa, as was proposed, but unimplemented in VP Congress 2
Moves the Aztec floating garden UB1 to Egypt and renamed it to the Nilometer, for Egypt’s UB2. Adds a new UB and UNW to Aztecs.

 

[rkkn]

4UC does the following:
Adds a new ability to legion (faster improvement speed when near a GGeneral)
Moves the ability to build fishing boats without being expended from the Polynesian UA to a new UU
Removes the Roman colosseum to replace with a (modified) version of the Villa, as was proposed, but unimplemented in VP Congress 2
Moves the Aztec floating garden UB1 to Egypt and renamed it to the Nilometer, for Egypt’s UB2. Adds a new UB and UNW to Aztecs.

don't forget Parthenon. It replaces a world wonder also.

 

[azum4roll]

Jaguar was also changed.

 

[pineappledan]

4UC no longer makes any changes to base Polynesia.

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

I notice Bullring was moved way back to Scientific Theory, possible to make it somewhere between its previous tech (Machinery) and where it is now? Spaniards have had public bullfighting for a very long time.

 

[pineappledan]

I believe it was at navigation previously, not machinery.

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

I believe it was at navigation previously, not machinery.

You're right. I was confusing it with the hacienda construction ability. The move isn't quite so drastic.

 

[zero-nine]

Overall grade: C+
The thing that I have gleaned from my casual perusal of Portugal’s history is that Brazil, Spain, and Portugal all being separate civs is extremely unhelpful. In culture, historical entanglements, and warfare these three are virtually inseparable, and nowhere is that more clear than with Portugal. This nation has been militarily and politically irrelevant since 1755. Outside of the creation of the Carrack/Nau, and the reconquest of Portugal from the Moors by the Crusaders – a subject thoroughly covered by the existing religious mechanics – Portugal’s military may as well have not existed. The paucity of things about Portugal worth depicting puts us in a bad spot for making extra components for them, but we did the best we could.

Cacador
Theme - C. A light infantry trained by the English from Portuguese recruits to try to slow Napoleon down a bit. It didn’t work, and as far as candidates for unique light infantry go, the Cacadores score far below the Scottish Highlanders, Rangers, Zouaves, Jaegers, Grenzers, and Chasseurs, all of which are highly decorated a memorable infantry divisions that were met with far more success.
Mechanics - C. A random recon stem promotion is also given to the unit on level up. This means that newly-trained cacadores are usually much better than upgraded veterans, because they will get 2-3 free scout promotions in addition to their ranged promos. This mechanic is unintuitive in how it punishes highly-promoted old units and rewards training new recruits. It is also extremely, brutally strong if you manage to get the right mix of free promotions, which is outside of player control.
Uniqueness - B. Well it certainly doesn’t lack for uniqueness, that is for sure. No other unique Gatling Guns, and nothing that gives free promotions like the Fighting Cock mechanic.

University of Coimbra
Theme - C. This is just the oldest university, and for more than a century the oldest university in Portugal. It is neither the oldest, the largest, nor the most prestigious university in Europe, but is at least very influential within Portugal.
Mechanics - A. The UNW gives gold on tile reveal to all naval units 1 tech before the Nau opens up deep ocean exploration. The Age of Discovery ability doubles down on Portugal’s naval exploration and trade theme. The Admiral movement restoration bonus is like a naval version of Sweden’s massive military bonus on GG birth, but unlike sweden, Portugal’s GAdmiral bonus triggers on expend. If this is not suitable for the AI it could be moved to be on birth like the Swedish one, but for now I like the control this gave Portugal on this relatively more niche ability.
Uniqueness – B. It is a UNW that gives some standard UNW bonuses, but also has some very interesting tricks up its sleeve. Overall I am very happy with what UoCoimbra brings to the table.

Hi, Portuguese here and new to the forum! Been reading up on things and found this and wanted to share a few thoughts.

This nation has been militarily and politically irrelevant since 1755.

OUCH! ;(

Brazil, Spain, and Portugal all being separate civs is extremely unhelpful

these three are virtually inseparable, and nowhere is that more clear than with Portugal.

Well... there's a lot to unpack here. We broke off Spain a while back, settled in this little corner of Europe, later settled Brazil and our Government usually boasts about the fact that we have one of the oldest borders in the world... there's enough time there to make us culturally different. How different? Well probably enough to still warrant different flags and have different countries but I understand. For instance, Latin American countries speak the same language, know what "paella" is so why can't all of them be Spain? I don't read "inseparable" as "indistinguishable" but I admit, it rubbed me the wrong way. A bit.

Regarding the unit, I totally agree that this matter is specially hard since my country (as I recall the little history I know) besides the Age of Discovery, has slim to none "iconic"/relevant military groups - but have you heard of the Baker of Aljubarrota? Hell I could say we're in trouble since 1755 and suggest the Present Portuguese taxi driver as a combat unit just because... traffic in Lisbon.

But seriously, I would have probably suggested the order created after the dissolution of the Knights Templar in Portugal - The Military Order of Christ. Tying with your comment about the "Reconquista", where we got an influx of templars and the Ordem de Cristo inherited their stuff after the pope ... well, you know!

Just for context, the proposed "cacador" is based off the Portuguese Legion? As probably, at this time, none of this will have any impact on the development I would just like to really point out one thing: "Cacador" isn't the same as "Caçador". At all. I don't know if special characters are allowed in the game like the "Ç" but let me point out that a "cacador" is akin to a "horsehockeyter" in my language as "caca" is a euphemism for "horsehockey". Now "caça" is "hunt". I would suggested a revision of the name if it can't be incorporated with the Ç, a change to "Portuguese Legion" maybe? Would really like to see the Order of Christ represented, maybe the horseman and could double as a missionary but if that's out of the question at this stage, you have my thoughts on the rest.

Keep up the great work overall, looking forward to it.

 

[pineappledan]

It will have the c with the accent below it in game but it takes too much time and effort to type that on a standard English keyboard

 

[hokath]

OUCH! ;(

Britain (as ever) stands with Portugal against this Canadian aggression.

But seriously, I would have probably suggested the order created after the dissolution of the Knights Templar in Portugal - The Military Order of Christ.

Have a think about what improved Portugese unique components would look like (and how they interact with the overall Civ design) and we can make it a reality at the next VP Congress!
If you need help brainstorming you can discuss in the workshop thread here, or on the Discord.
It's a shame the monopoly mechanics work the way they do, because a wine-related port-producing building would be a shoe-in.

 

[Tekamthi]

While the specific mechanics are a bit undercooked, I am happy with our choices from a thematic perspective

RE: Polynesia here... I think it still lacks some way to truly manage very far flung Island holdings effectively, something like the situational double ocean move I've proposed previously... But it's great thematically and a viable contender at the higher difficulties on larger continent-style maps (my fave). The 3uc/4uc choices really added nicely to this favorite civ of mine, though my experience thus far is limited to early and mid game

 

[zero-nine]

Britain (as ever) stands with Portugal against this Canadian aggression.


Have a think about what improved Portugese unique components would look like (and how they interact with the overall Civ design) and we can make it a reality at the next VP Congress!
If you need help brainstorming you can discuss in the workshop thread here, or on the Discord.
It's a shame the monopoly mechanics work the way they do, because a wine-related port-producing building would be a shoe-in.

AHAH well-met and well-put.

Great to see the ol' Treaty of Windsor holding strong!!

Thank you for the suggestion but I think that would be too much for me actually. Worse: I don't play with VP just the CP - which I'm really enjoying with my friends lately. It's been awesome to read on all this effort still being put out by the fans.

+1 on a Port building or Resource

 

[Gen.Washington]

I feel the Tophet for Carthage should be replaced. I don't feel like a civ should be railroaded into the more "evil" parts. America shouldn't have unique cotton plantations and Russia shouldn't have gulags. Just my opinion.

 

[LHKin]

I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring regarding Portugal, as I also find the slander pretty shocking

I think the search for a land UU for Portugal is fairly futile, what's incredible about Portuguese history is the period from the 15th to the 17th century in which this tiny, relatively poor country on the edge of the world created a global maritime empire through sheer audacity alone. Dom Manuel actually attempted to declare and enforce himself as the sovereign of the seas. *In the Indian Ocean*

If I were to redesign Portugal, I would focus on giving them a late Medieval / early Renaissance power spike focussed on trade and maritime warfare. I think the basic VP kit reflects that fairly well, but the 4UC kit loses sight of that somewhat. I would actually change the Nau to being a replacement for the frigate, available early. Naus were big, heavy ships with big guns designed to have the largest cargo capacities possible. They were not exploration vessels and were protected in the fleet by more nimble caravels. The Portuguese developed a square-rigged caravel-type ship called the caravela redonda / caravela de armada which would make a great UU for them. You could have the Caravela de Armada as an early unlocking relacement for the caravel to represent the innovative light ships the Portuguese developed that enabled their unprecedented exploration of the oceans. It would be a fantastic exploration ship that would make Portugal *the* Renaissance exploration civ, as in history, that could also be used to capture coastal cities, as the Portuguese did at Ormuz, Goa, Malacca, Zanzibar, and many other locations in that period. The Nau would lose its exploration role and become an early-unlocking heavy beast, providing long range support to the Caravela de Armada in attacking cities but also fulfilling its trade/economy-based role it has currently.

The University of Coimbra is just not that interesting for me, its just a medieval university. Instead, I would give Portugal the Casa da Índia as a unique replacement for the East India Company. Unlocking early, it would give bonuses to ship construction, great admiral generation, and some kind of bonus based on access to luxuries or luxuries sold.

With Caravela de Armada, Nau, Feitoria, and Casa da Índia, Portugal could lead the way in global exploration and trade and be a real naval powerhouse during the time period when it historically had such a freakish power spike. It's the interesting part of Portuguese history and the reason the civ is in the game, so I don't think it should be shied away from.

Completely unrelatedly, I'm sure it's been brought up before but I can't resist mentioning that the Celts never used scythed chariots, it's a common misconception. Celtic chariots were of an incredibly lightweight construction and designed for getting important high status warriors around the battlefield in speedy and impressive fashion. Scythed chariots did exist historically, but in the Persian and later Hellenistic world. The Celtic chariot was a very different beast.

 

[hokath]

@LHKin
I don't know how, but you've have been spying on me and I demand you stop.

Spoiler :

It's a Frigate replacement and an East Indian Company

 

[LHKin]

@hokath lol, great minds and all that...

 

[zero-nine]

I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring regarding Portugal, as I also find the slander pretty shocking

I think the search for a land UU for Portugal is fairly futile, what's incredible about Portuguese history is the period from the 15th to the 17th century in which this tiny, relatively poor country on the edge of the world created a global maritime empire through sheer audacity alone. Dom Manuel actually attempted to declare and enforce himself as the sovereign of the seas. *In the Indian Ocean*

If I were to redesign Portugal, I would focus on giving them a late Medieval / early Renaissance power spike focussed on trade and maritime warfare. I think the basic VP kit reflects that fairly well, but the 4UC kit loses sight of that somewhat. I would actually change the Nau to being a replacement for the frigate, available early. Naus were big, heavy ships with big guns designed to have the largest cargo capacities possible. They were not exploration vessels and were protected in the fleet by more nimble caravels. The Portuguese developed a square-rigged caravel-type ship called the caravela redonda / caravela de armada which would make a great UU for them. You could have the Caravela de Armada as an early unlocking relacement for the caravel to represent the innovative light ships the Portuguese developed that enabled their unprecedented exploration of the oceans. It would be a fantastic exploration ship that would make Portugal *the* Renaissance exploration civ, as in history, that could also be used to capture coastal cities, as the Portuguese did at Ormuz, Goa, Malacca, Zanzibar, and many other locations in that period. The Nau would lose its exploration role and become an early-unlocking heavy beast, providing long range support to the Caravela de Armada in attacking cities but also fulfilling its trade/economy-based role it has currently.

The University of Coimbra is just not that interesting for me, its just a medieval university. Instead, I would give Portugal the Casa da Índia as a unique replacement for the East India Company. Unlocking early, it would give bonuses to ship construction, great admiral generation, and some kind of bonus based on access to luxuries or luxuries sold.

With Caravela de Armada, Nau, Feitoria, and Casa da Índia, Portugal could lead the way in global exploration and trade and be a real naval powerhouse during the time period when it historically had such a freakish power spike. It's the interesting part of Portuguese history and the reason the civ is in the game, so I don't think it should be shied away from.

Completely unrelatedly, I'm sure it's been brought up before but I can't resist mentioning that the Celts never used scythed chariots, it's a common misconception. Celtic chariots were of an incredibly lightweight construction and designed for getting important high status warriors around the battlefield in speedy and impressive fashion. Scythed chariots did exist historically, but in the Persian and later Hellenistic world. The Celtic chariot was a very different beast.

This. All of it.