defending tile, first strike, defense bonus?

[kafka_jiri]

Hello,
I haven´t figured out what rule game uses to determine which unit will defend the tile and if it can be somehow influenced (e.g. swordman and knight are standing on the same tile and then pikeman attack this tile- who will defend?).

Next thing I am interested in is the "first strike" - what exactly does it do? And one more thing: which defense bonus is counted when I attack - actual or attacked tile?

thank you really much
J. Kafka

 

[Enigma256]

as for defending:
the game will always pick the best counter against the attacking unit

so if you attack with a horseman a tile with a pikeman and a swordsman the pikeman will defend, unless the swordsman has a better chance of defeating the horseman because of some of his training.

first strike is damaging the opponent before he can damage you.
it basically gives you some free attacks.

defense bonus is counted for the tile on which the defender stands.
except the crossing river bonus, cause rivers are in between tiles


i am by no means an expert, but this are my takes on this, hopefully they are correct

 

[Pantastic]

The unit that has the best odds to win the fight will normally defend the tile, which depends on promotions and the terrain in the tile. If the units are unpromoted and its a plain tile, then in your example the swordsman would defend. You can influence which unit defends by picking a unit or promotions that give something else good odds of attacking. For example, if you have a pikeman with shock (+25% vs melee) attacking a swordsman with city raider promotions and a knight with shock, you might end up fighting the knight before the sword. Also, some 'artillery' units (seems to be cats, cannons, and artillery) automatically defend last even if they have higher odds than another unit.

First strike chances give a unit free rounds of combat at the start, if the FS unit wins a round then it damages the other unit, if it loses nothing happens. FS can be very powerful, it's a nice bonus on archery units and going up to drill IV can make a unit that tends to vaporize the enemy wihtout taking any damage in return.

The defense bonus is for the defender and comes from the defenders tile, the terrain in the attacker's tile doesn't make any difference (unless you're attacking from the ocean or across a river, of course).

Download the patch to 1.61 if you don't have it (Warlords includes it if that's what you're running), there were a number of bugs with first strikes and which unit should defend in earlier versions.

 

[kafka_jiri]

thank you mates for your useful replies - if something is great about civilizaton, its community

thx again
George Kafka

 

[cabert]

just one more thing about first strikes : some mounted units are immune to them and the others have access to flanking I,II just gives the same immunity. That is why drills are not allways the best promotions to use. I give it to crossbowmen and siege, but bows/lonbows often will face mounted units, so it's no use!

 

[kafka_jiri]

good point - I have one more question - what actions I can do in order to get enemy city without war - I figured out increasing culture and using of Great Artist ...

thanks

 

[Enigma256]

that's about it

you could demand it from them, but they will rarely agree to just give it to you

 

[Dominico]

Does first strike work only on defence?

Im sure i read somewhere its only a defensive skill. Or does it also work on offence?

 

[Pantastic]

First strike works on attack and defense, you probably read something from another person confused about it.

 

[ProbStat]

Something that doesn't seem to be documented in the game (and possibly that is not correctly reflected when the computer chooses the "best defender" in a stack): a unit's effective combat strength is its base combat strength multiplied by its undamaged percentage. So a Swordsman who is 2/3 wounded will have an effective combat strength of 2 (6 base strength times 1/3 undamaged). So this makes him equivalent to a Warrior, right? No, because the Warrior has 100 hit points he can take, and the injured Swordsman only has about 17 -- they are equally likely to deliver a blow, but the Warrior can take six times as many blows as the Swordsman. If each blow is 17 points (I'm not sure what they would actually be), the injured Swordsman has only 1 chance in 64 of winning (1/2^6), assuming no other adjustments.

Also, all terrain and promotion-type adjustments seem to be additive and to work off of the effective combat strength: a Spearman defending against a Knight on a Hill has a modified combat strength of 9 (4 base strength times [1 + 100% versus Mounted modifier + 25% Hill modifier]), and not 10 (4 base strength times [1 + 100% versus Mounted modifier] times [1 + 25% Hill modifier]). The exception to this is the injury modifier, which comes straight off of the top of the base strength, so a 50% injured Spearman in this situation would have a modified combat strength of 4.5 (4 base strength times 50% wounded times [1 + 100% versus Mounted modifier + 25% Hill modifier]).

Moral: ALWAYS heal before combat, even when you have your opponent completely outclassed. Also, ALWAYS swarm attack, and almost always take a shot at a wounded opponent unit, even if you think you're completely outclassed.

 

[Meatbuster]

...a unit's effective combat strength is its base combat strength multiplied by its undamaged percentage. So a Swordsman who is 2/3 wounded will have an effective combat strength of 2 (6 base strength times 1/3 undamaged). So this makes him equivalent to a Warrior, right?

That's true in 1.52 patch, but... it's been changed in 1.61 patch, where a unit's effective combat strength is now its base combat strength multiplied by the average of the undamaged percentage and 100% (a.k.a. halfway).

A swordsman who is 2/3 wounded (a.k.a. 1/3 life left) will thus have an effective combat strength of 4. Because (1 + 1/3) /2 = 2/3 so 2/3 * 6 = 4.

 

[cabert]

robokai is right!
so there is never a point where your unit is under half base strength.

however, being low on HP makes the lucky shot so much more likely that a warrior often wins vs a badly wounded swordsman

 

[comrade7]

How combat between 2 units with first strike is resolved (or unit with 1 first strike vs unit with 2 first strikes) ? What does 'extra first strike chance' do? What chance is that? 50%, more, less?

 

[Pantastic]

Each first strike gives a round of combat, so a unit with 1 first strike gets a chance to do a bit of damage, while a drill IV crossbow gets something lik 7. If both units have first strikes, they cancel out. So if one unit has 1 first strike and the other has 2, it's like the second unit has 1 first strike and the first has 0.

 

[Pogel]

So what does "extra first strike chance", as opposed to "extra first strike" mean. I've always assumed it works along these lines:

Unpromoted, you get 1 chance to win each contested round. If you have a first strike you win the round but forfeit the chance to contest the subsequent round. An extra first strike chance gives you back your chance to win the round.

e.g., archer (1 first strike) vs an axeman:

unpromoted archer would win round 1 automatically, axe would win round 2
Drill I archer would win round 1 automatically, and have a 50/50 chance to win round 2
Drill II archer would win round 1 & 2 automatically, and have a 50/50 chance at round 3
Drill III archer would win rounds 1 & 2 automatically, and have a 3:1 = 75% chance at round 3
Drill IV archer would win rounds 1 - 4 automatically, and have a 3:1 = 75% chance at round 5

All assumptions - can any back this up / refute it?

 

[cabert]

So what does "extra first strike chance", as opposed to "extra first strike" mean. I've always assumed it works along these lines:

Unpromoted, you get 1 chance to win each contested round. If you have a first strike you win the round but forfeit the chance to contest the subsequent round. An extra first strike chance gives you back your chance to win the round.

e.g., archer (1 first strike) vs an axeman:

unpromoted archer would win round 1 automatically, axe would win round 2
Drill I archer would win round 1 automatically, and have a 50/50 chance to win round 2
Drill II archer would win round 1 & 2 automatically, and have a 50/50 chance at round 3
Drill III archer would win rounds 1 & 2 automatically, and have a 3:1 = 75% chance at round 3
Drill IV archer would win rounds 1 - 4 automatically, and have a 3:1 = 75% chance at round 5

All assumptions - can any back this up / refute it?

all wrong!
1) you get as much extra rounds of fight (where you don't lose hp even if you lose them) as you have first strikes
2) each first strike chance is randomly either a first strike or nothing

 

[Mutineer]

Number of first strikes useally not fixed.
In description you might see something like 1-2 first strikes.

So, Befor combat start number is rolled between 1 and 2, which define how many first strikes units will have in this combat.

 

[automator]

the game will always pick the best counter against the attacking unit

Not always true.

I had an experience four times in a recent game where a Gunship was attacking cities. Main defenders were:

a full-power, City Garrison II SAM Infantry
a full-power, Combat I Machine Gun

The Machine Gunner was used to defend against the Gunship on four different times (four different cities). SAMs are stronger, and have a vs Gunship bonus, and I had City Garrison II ... so why was the machine gun chosen for defense (which it lost all but once).

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Not always true.

I had an experience four times in a recent game where a Gunship was attacking cities. Main defenders were:

a full-power, City Garrison II SAM Infantry
a full-power, Combat I Machine Gun

The Machine Gunner was used to defend against the Gunship on four different times (four different cities). SAMs are stronger, and have a vs Gunship bonus, and I had City Garrison II ... so why was the machine gun chosen for defense (which it lost all but once).

I've seen that too, gunships attacked a newly captured city and my unpromoted marines were chosen to defend instead of my SAM infantry. Kind of frustrating.