Why are archers and longbowmen so bad on defense. If an archer unit is attacked it can wait in formation and aim better than if it were moving. The attackers would have to advance under a hail of arrows. So why is a gunpowder unit so much better on defense than offense and an archer unit isn't?
Defense values
- Thread starter krw72588
- Start date
Also because this is a game and in this game, the archer/longbowmen fills the roles of a resourceless attking unit. 
So they make the defense light, to balance out the lack of resource requirement.
As with any game, units presented don't really match reality prefectly. Come on, Iroquise knights???
So they make the defense light, to balance out the lack of resource requirement. As with any game, units presented don't really match reality prefectly. Come on, Iroquise knights???
Zachriel
Kaiser
Keep in mind that these units are abstractions. But with that said, archers are good only when protected by other units. This is generally historical. They are easily overrun once units reach their lines, especially mounted units. Defend your archers with spearmen.
Gunpowder units are historically much better on defense than offense. This was true from the advent of the musket right up until the invention of the tank. It is much easier to defend behind a wall or even lying down than to march in the open. By the time of WWI, the power of gunpowder was such that no one could survive long in the open. The result was increasing fatality on the battlefield from early muskets to machine guns. Firepower had advanced, but the human skin had not improved much.
nullspace
King
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 728
You could think of it this way: When the archers attack they're firing a volley onto the enemy, not advancing like hand-to-hand fighters would. Enemies that survive can then attack the archers. But it takes time reload and the archers can only fire one volley per turn, so they are weak againt a counterattack.
If you don't like it, you could edit the unit. Someone on these forums (I can't reacall who) mentioned that they gave their Longbowmen the bombard ability, but with a range of 0. This meant that any unit attacking a stack that included longbowmen would have to take a hit from the longbowmen before fighting the highest defense unit in the stack. That would make them more useful on defense.
If you don't like it, you could edit the unit. Someone on these forums (I can't reacall who) mentioned that they gave their Longbowmen the bombard ability, but with a range of 0. This meant that any unit attacking a stack that included longbowmen would have to take a hit from the longbowmen before fighting the highest defense unit in the stack. That would make them more useful on defense.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Early muskets were vulnerable to overrun also, due to their slow rate of fire. They were often protected by pike until the invention of the bayonet. Civ3 is too abstracted and too strategically generalized to deal with the minutae of the combat model.
A common alternative model would be
archers beat foot
foot beat horse
horse beat archers
Civ3 doesn't even reach this level of detail.
Longbowmen need years and years of training while just about anybody can pick up a musket and learn how to use it in short order.
Hmm... I'm pretty dubious about that. Do you realise the work involved in keeping a musket in working order, learning how to load it properly so it doesn't blow up in your face when you shoot, and learning to aim reasonably well with that imperfect gun? Probably not much less than a bow.
Daniel
"Longbowmen need years and years of training while just about anybody can pick up a musket and learn how to use it in short order."
Who could shoot more accurately a man who trained for a year with a longbow or one who trained with a smooth bore musket. I Know longbows have a much greater rate of fire but does anyone know about accuracy with relatively untrained soligers.
Who could shoot more accurately a man who trained for a year with a longbow or one who trained with a smooth bore musket. I Know longbows have a much greater rate of fire but does anyone know about accuracy with relatively untrained soligers.
Hellfire
Prince
If you want to get into the argument between bows and guns...
Both bows and guns require upkeep, but there are guns that don't require much upkeep at all. The AK-47 was designed so that you could throw it in a sand dune or in a marsh and then pick it up 3 years later and it would still fire.
Bows require upkeep, and since they are wood are not as durable and are more prone to the weather (warping and cracking). Todays compound bows need to be kept up because of the pully system they use. Composite bows were very well made, but note that you had to know how to make them and they took a long time to make. So did english longbows.
As for actually using a gun, its pretty much line up the sites, point the sites at the target, and pull the trigger. Is it hard? Its definitely not easy, but once you get that concept, its just a matter of practicing your shooting.
Some might think for a bow all you do is aim, pull back the string and let go. But you have to realize something: A bow is a LOT HARDER to aim. Why? Two reasons:
1) Physics. A bullet has a flat trajectory for about 90% of its flight, so point and shoot works. As for a bow, thats not true since its relying on your muscle and the flex action of the bow. You have to aim above the target, and the distance to the target affects how far above you aim. Its exactly modern artillery shells only the distance is much shorter. And with a bow you don't get the benefit of handy dandy trigonometry charts to figure out how high you should aim.
2) When sighting a bow, the line of your eyes and arrow do not line up like the sites on a gun. You have to guestimate using experience and 3 dimensional plotting in your head!!! Then you have to practice this at different ranges and on moving targets and train your brain to understand what you have to do in each situation and extrapolate.
And this doesn't include understanding how to draw a medieval bow. Today's compound bows are easy to draw back, but composite and longbows of old require quite a bit of strength (draw the bow back with your whole body, not just your arm!)
And don't get me started on how a newbie would get his forearm smacked hard if he didn't understand about stringslap!!!
Okay I'm done
Both bows and guns require upkeep, but there are guns that don't require much upkeep at all. The AK-47 was designed so that you could throw it in a sand dune or in a marsh and then pick it up 3 years later and it would still fire.
Bows require upkeep, and since they are wood are not as durable and are more prone to the weather (warping and cracking). Todays compound bows need to be kept up because of the pully system they use. Composite bows were very well made, but note that you had to know how to make them and they took a long time to make. So did english longbows.
As for actually using a gun, its pretty much line up the sites, point the sites at the target, and pull the trigger. Is it hard? Its definitely not easy, but once you get that concept, its just a matter of practicing your shooting.
Some might think for a bow all you do is aim, pull back the string and let go. But you have to realize something: A bow is a LOT HARDER to aim. Why? Two reasons:
1) Physics. A bullet has a flat trajectory for about 90% of its flight, so point and shoot works. As for a bow, thats not true since its relying on your muscle and the flex action of the bow. You have to aim above the target, and the distance to the target affects how far above you aim. Its exactly modern artillery shells only the distance is much shorter. And with a bow you don't get the benefit of handy dandy trigonometry charts to figure out how high you should aim.
2) When sighting a bow, the line of your eyes and arrow do not line up like the sites on a gun. You have to guestimate using experience and 3 dimensional plotting in your head!!! Then you have to practice this at different ranges and on moving targets and train your brain to understand what you have to do in each situation and extrapolate.
And this doesn't include understanding how to draw a medieval bow. Today's compound bows are easy to draw back, but composite and longbows of old require quite a bit of strength (draw the bow back with your whole body, not just your arm!)
And don't get me started on how a newbie would get his forearm smacked hard if he didn't understand about stringslap!!!
Okay I'm done
Evincar
Iron works is a legend!!
It was me, but I didn't change their range to 0, I just did not give them the bombardment ability, so they can't really bombard (arrows destroying cathedrals?? weird, very weird
)
Evincar
Iron works is a legend!!
In fact, there are 2 main reasons for muskets to become habitual in the battlefields:
Armor piercing: plate armors protected nothing againts muskets, while knights were almost invulnerable to arrows
Number: while training a longbowman took years, musketmen were ready in one month!!!
The remaining factors are actually againts the musket: Less range, bad accuracy, unreliable, and less fire rate. However, those advantages were so big that muskets quickly replaced bows
Armor piercing: plate armors protected nothing againts muskets, while knights were almost invulnerable to arrows
Number: while training a longbowman took years, musketmen were ready in one month!!!
The remaining factors are actually againts the musket: Less range, bad accuracy, unreliable, and less fire rate. However, those advantages were so big that muskets quickly replaced bows
Zachriel
Kaiser
Make Ready
Prime your Piece
Cast about your Piece
Place the Charge
Place your Wadding
Ram your Wadding
Prepare to Give Fire
Blow upon your Coals
Cock your Match
Present upon your Piece
Secure your Scouring Stick
Open your Pan
GIVE FIRE
This is the standard loading and firing procedures for smoothbore muskets before the time of the American Revolution. Notice that the drill is missing the word "aim." The purpose of the musketry line was to present a wall of fire before the enemy. Only with the advent of rifling, used with good effect by the rebellious Americans, did "aim" enter the lexicon.
The purpose of the drill was to make sure everybody did the same thing at the same time. That way they wouldn't kill each other. Skill had little to do with it, but discipline was essential.
Prime your Piece
Cast about your Piece
Place the Charge
Place your Wadding
Ram your Wadding
Prepare to Give Fire
Blow upon your Coals
Cock your Match
Present upon your Piece
Secure your Scouring Stick
Open your Pan
GIVE FIRE
This is the standard loading and firing procedures for smoothbore muskets before the time of the American Revolution. Notice that the drill is missing the word "aim." The purpose of the musketry line was to present a wall of fire before the enemy. Only with the advent of rifling, used with good effect by the rebellious Americans, did "aim" enter the lexicon.
The purpose of the drill was to make sure everybody did the same thing at the same time. That way they wouldn't kill each other. Skill had little to do with it, but discipline was essential.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Half Cock your Firelocks
Handle your Cartridge
Prime
Shut your Pans
Charge with Cartridge
Draw your Rammers
Ram down your Cartridge
Return your Rammers
Shoulder your Firelocks
Rest your Firelocks
Order your Firelocks
Ground your Firelocks
Take up your Firelocks
Rest your Firelocks
Shoulder your Firelocks
Poise your Firelocks
Cock your Firelocks
Present
FIRE!
Secure your Firelocks
Shoulder your Firelocks
Fix your Bayonets
CHARGE!
Handle your Cartridge
Prime
Shut your Pans
Charge with Cartridge
Draw your Rammers
Ram down your Cartridge
Return your Rammers
Shoulder your Firelocks
Rest your Firelocks
Order your Firelocks
Ground your Firelocks
Take up your Firelocks
Rest your Firelocks
Shoulder your Firelocks
Poise your Firelocks
Cock your Firelocks
Present
FIRE!
Secure your Firelocks
Shoulder your Firelocks
Fix your Bayonets
CHARGE!
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