Defensive artillery in Civ 5?

[zhivago1970]

One of the key defensive strategies in Panzer General was to place an artillery unit behind another unit (like an infantry unit, an anti-tank unit, etc.) When an attacking unit attacked a unit that had an artillery unit behind it, the artillery unit got a one-time first shot at the attacking unit. This concept also applied with fighters and bombers/transport units. If a fighter was in an adjacent hex to a bomber or transport, an enemy air unit that tried to attack the bomber or transport would first get hit by a defensive shot from the fighter.

Both of these tactics were great to use on defense. A lot of times, as an attacker, one would usually sacrifice a weaker unit to use up the one-time defensive artillery or fighter shot so that a more powerful unit could attack second without getting plastered by the defensive artillery.

Does anyone know if this defensive artillery component from Panzer General will be transplanted somehow into Civ 5?

 

[migkillertwo]

One of the key defensive strategies in Panzer General was to place an artillery unit behind another unit (like an infantry unit, an anti-tank unit, etc.) When an attacking unit attacked a unit that had an artillery unit behind it, the artillery unit got a one-time first shot at the attacking unit. This concept also applied with fighters and bombers/transport units. If a fighter was in an adjacent hex to a bomber or transport, an enemy air unit that tried to attack the bomber or transport would first get hit by a defensive shot from the fighter.

Both of these tactics were great to use on defense. A lot of times, as an attacker, one would usually sacrifice a weaker unit to use up the one-time defensive artillery or fighter shot so that a more powerful unit could attack second without getting plastered by the defensive artillery.

Does anyone know if this defensive artillery component from Panzer General will be transplanted somehow into Civ 5?

I think this could be very useful and fun if it were automated. If you had to actually put the artillery into a defensive posture by yourself it wouldn't work. However if it were automatic, like say the artillery unit is always in a defensive/support posture if it has movement points at the end of a turn, then it would be useful. Failing that, it would become just another thing to complicate teh game.

If this were also applied to your units attacking other units and calling in artillery/air support if the fight were uncertain then it would be very fun. However it would have to be a promotion and not something that all units could do. Even today, many countries with infantry, amour, and artillery cannot give close air/artillery support to their troops, and in teh United States military, this has yet to be perfected as there are still mistakes.

I think that it could give small nations an interesting advantage by making their forces better trained and more mobile than larger, static armies.

 

[the343danny]

I think I heard something along those lines. I wouldnt worry about it, as Im willing to bet that something along those lines will be implemented,

 

[The_J]

This feature was mentioned here.

 

[zhivago1970]

This feature was mentioned here.

Thanks for the info! This is going to make the case a lot more fun and challenging! I hope they also have the "rugged defense" feature built in too from Panzer General!

 

[pi-r8]

i hope they don't use it the same way it is in panzer general. In the first one, defensive artillery doesn't just get 1 shot, it can shoot every single attacker as long as it has ammo. On top of that, artillery is so strong that it can often break up the attack by itself, which makes even the weakest defender completely invincible. Two artilleries next to each other is ridiculously hard to take out. The end result is a disproportionate emphasis on airpower, because that's often the only practical way to take out defensive artillery.

 

[migkillertwo]

i hope they don't use it the same way it is in panzer general. In the first one, defensive artillery doesn't just get 1 shot, it can shoot every single attacker as long as it has ammo. On top of that, artillery is so strong that it can often break up the attack by itself, which makes even the weakest defender completely invincible. Two artilleries next to each other is ridiculously hard to take out. The end result is a disproportionate emphasis on airpower, because that's often the only practical way to take out defensive artillery.

well IRL artillery is a pretty devastating tool. I think it should be like that, but instead the artillery can only fire upon attacking units so long as it has movement points left. That "as long as it has ammo" reeks of RTS.

 

[zhivago1970]

well IRL artillery is a pretty devastating tool. I think it should be like that, but instead the artillery can only fire upon attacking units so long as it has movement points left. That "as long as it has ammo" reeks of RTS.

The fact that an artillery piece has a finite amount of ammo makes the game more realistic. This is one of the things that made Panzer General a great game. Units should have limited ammo, and should have to resupply in order to continue an attack. I thought PG also had it right about there only being one defensive shot for the artillery in response to the first attack on a supported unit.

Sigh...I wish there could be a new Panzer General remake in addition to Civilization V.

 

[tom2050]

I hope they did not straight up completely copy the combat methods directly from another game. Half the fun of being a game designer should be coming up with the ideas themselves. Maybe they are in mid-life crisis or something; or figured it was an easy way out.

But, now that I think about it... previous civ versions had pretty bad combat models, so I suppose we are lucky they are copying the combat model completely from another excellent combat game; and not thinking of one themselves.

 

[Insanity_X]

Or alternatively, he really liked Panzer General, took the concepts he liked, and modified them to work in CiV. Judge the damn system when you've had a chance to play with it.

 

[tom2050]

Don't get upset, I didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings... I am glad they are copying Panzer General's combat model (which was the game), because they have done a horrible job with combat models themselves.

They probably realized it was about time to not use their own heads to bring about another horrible combat model, and instead just 'take it' from someone else.

This is an excellent thing, but it does mean that we don't get to experience anything new with combat. We know what it will be like in some respects. And we know it is completely un-original.

 

[Insanity_X]

I'm not upset. Just gets a wee bit annoying reading everybody making their minds up about a game before they've had a chance to play it.

Also, no idea is original.

 

[Set]

Also, no idea is original.

By this logic every idea is original they were just original a long time ago

 

[luke2345]

panzer general assult is boring

 

[zhivago1970]

panzer general assult is boring

Clearly you have never played the original Panzer General from 1994. That is the game we are talking about here, and from which Civilization V is copying battle elements from.

 

[plasmacannon]

I like the idea of having progressively better units having longer ranges.
For example, something like this:
Axe throwers just get first strike.
Early Archers, galleys with an early archer get to fire 1 hex away.
Longbowmen, Catapults, Scorpians and Triremes fire 2 hexes away.
Ballistas, Trebuchets, and Man-of-Wars fire 3 hexes away.
Cannons, Destroyers and WW1 subs fire 4 hexes away.
WW2 Artillery, Cruisers fires 5 hexes away.
Modern Artillery, Battleships and Modern subs fires 6 hexes away.
Ballistic missile subs should be able to fire at very long ranges (5000 miles in real life is nothing to scoff at, or diminish), and should start with a set amount of ammo, instead of waiting to make it useful.

Anyway, you get thge idea.
I always hated it when I had to lose a catapult or Treb when I attacked a city.
This made no sense, because, the enemy couldn't get near one without leaving their castle in those days (unless, they had the same weapon, of course).

 

[migkillertwo]

I like the idea of having progressively better units having longer ranges.
For example, something like this:
Axe throwers just get first strike.
Early Archers, galleys with an early archer get to fire 1 hex away.
Longbowmen, Catapults, Scorpians and Triremes fire 2 hexes away.
Ballistas, Trebuchets, and Man-of-Wars fire 3 hexes away.
Cannons, Destroyers and WW1 subs fire 4 hexes away.
WW2 Artillery, Cruisers fires 5 hexes away.
Modern Artillery, Battleships and Modern subs fires 6 hexes away.
Ballistic missile subs should be able to fire at very long ranges (5000 miles in real life is nothing to scoff at, or diminish), and should start with a set amount of ammo, instead of waiting to make it useful.

Anyway, you get thge idea.
I always hated it when I had to lose a catapult or Treb when I attacked a city.
This made no sense, because, the enemy couldn't get near one without leaving their castle in those days (unless, they had the same weapon, of course).

well thankfully they are getting rid of the "suicide catapults" in CiV