Defensive units versus Offensive units?

[Chingis Khan]

I had a good tech lead on the world so I decided that instead of smashing everything with cavalry like usual, I would try something different. I sent out the infantry! Same attack as cavalry, but with a defense to withstand everyone else's knight counterattacks. Now, even taking into consideration the retreat ability of cavalry, it seemed to me that my infantry couldn't seem to beat the pikemen of the enemy. As I started thinking about it, I can remember my spearmen hardly ever winning offensive fights either (early in the game against barbs) while they have the same attack as a warrior. I kept on going until I got Mech Infantry, and started attacking with them. Same thing-nice high attack points, looks good on paper, but in reality, can't attack worth a damn. Come to think about it, my swordsmen seem to get killed am awful lot too, even though they have same defense as spearmen. Do offensive units have an "offense bonus" we don't know about and do defensive units have a "defense bonus"? This isn't a whine that I can't get a lucky break, but if my suspicion is true, then I would change my style to more of a combined arms army instead of the "all offense" armies I use now. Am I getting paranoid at this game? Am I just plain nuts or has anybody else noticed this?

 

[Zouave]

Yours is another eloquent reason why NO ONE should ever play with the braindead idiotic unit values that come with the game.

Soren already admitted that because of the much too low resource availablity (esp. for coal and iron) Firaxis kept the values of post-gunpowder units artificially low "to give those civs without a resource a chance".

Edit up the frequency of strategic resources so that they are rare but non insanely rare. I have iron at 177 on a standard map.

Edit up the values of all post gunpowder units. Be sure an attack would make sense: if riflemen attack pikemen would not the former win EVERY time? Of course, so be sure the values reflect that. Should cavalry (with rifles) have the same defense factor as knights (who never heard of gunpowder)? Of course not. If musketmen attacked spearmen should not the former win most of the time? Yes, but that won't happen in the game unoess you Edit.

Go see the LWC mod's values on the other forum on this site for other examples.

Edit, Edit.

 

[etj4Eagle]

Thank's Zouve for another post, which does not deal at all with the asked question.

Chingis Khan, with respect to your question:

My wars are generally fought with infantry, as I have modded up the cost of tanks to make them a luxery. And I have noticed no real differance when attacking with infantry verse calvary. My units win and loose just as often as they should.

 

[Kilroy]

Did you know that ALL terrain gives defending units a 10% bonus? Essentially Infantry are 6/11 because anytime they fight, they're gauranteed a 10% bonus. I removed this to even the playing field (honestly, why didn't they just give defensive units more defensive power if that's what they wanted? ). Believe it or not it seems to be making a difference even in the Ancient Age! Although, to be honest I'm probably just seeing what I want to see.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Chingis Khan
Do offensive units have an "offense bonus" we don't know about and do defensive units have a "defense bonus"?

No, but defenders (not defensive units) get a bonus, due to terrain. Generally, pikemen in a city will be very strong defensively -- as is natural when defending their home turf.

So when attacking with veteran infantry (6) against veteran pikemen (3) fortified in a city, your odds will not be 2v1, but 54% or 1-1.* Infantry attacks should be supported by artillery. The same infantry v. a redlined pikeman is 95%, or 20-1 odds, just as would be expected with vastly superior forces.

Bombard, bombard, bombard.


* Civulator
http://207.191.20.18/civ3/lwc-civulator.html
(My calculations assume the standard four hitpoints for veteran units.)

 

[The Troquelet]

Zouave, you are hilarious! I treasure your posts more and more...

The guy's not asking whether the unit values are wacked, which everyone knows they are. He's just asking why his defensive units never win even though they should on paper. Haven't noticed anything like that myself.

In related news, checking the Offense box for Spearmen-type units in the AI strategies really ups the difficulty - especially now that the conscript-crazy AI will swamp you with Infantry if attacked.

Agree about the bombardment. You need at least 70% odds (when modified for bonuses) or artillery in order to win any battle..

 

[simwiz2]

i havent noticed any invisible bonuses regarding attack/defense type units. I think your results may be due to luck, stringy RNG, perception of results, or a little bit of all of them.

 

[philippe]

i had once that my spearmen went into attack vs a knight.i won the battle since the i really believe spearmen are the best unit in the world

 

[godlearner]

You can show me all statistic you want, but in the game I am currently playing I have seen the following: My veteran Cavalry vs entrenched Riflemen win 100% unless the Riflemen is a conscript, in which case I win about 60% of the time.

I also noticed what my Horsemen had a fairly easy time taking out Immortals. I would win 80% to 90% of the battles. Have not seen anything unusual with the Knights. But, I converted them all to Cavalry before they saw battle.

 

[Zachriel]

An avid gambler went to the tracks one day, even though his leg was so sore he had to stand on only his one good leg. He won big that day. The gambler can now be found at the race track betting while standing on one leg.

(One of many "Gambler's Fallacies")

 

[Chingis Khan]

Wow, I tried using artillary like you guys suggested and it makes a HUGE difference when I attacked with my infantry juggernaut. Combined arms armies really do work!!! I started taking note of how often infantry win vs how often cavalry win and was surprised to see that everything is working properly, although it STILL seems like the infantry lose more! It's hurting my head, like looking at one of those optical illusions, you know what it really is, but it never seems right somehow. Oh well, I will probably go back to my more mobile army of cavalry/tanks but it was a nice change of pace to use a huge lumbering dreadnaught of an infantry/artillary army that had my AI shaking in it's boots...