Defensive Units

[Buttercup]

While we're on the subject of non-builds, I'm often fascinated by my own reluctance to build Defensive Units.

When I first started playing civ3 I would pack my towns with the latest available defensive Unit, only to watch the AI remove Infantry with Cavalry as if I had left Spearman holding the fort. I've since tried all manner of ways to make a defensive build impenetrable, but with little result other than 7 Infantry Fortified in a Barricade where the AI has Cavalry.

Like-wise, I defend the Iron on my Mountain with a Pikeman, but a Swordsman just cuts him off like snipping garden weeds. I defend a newly taken town by placing Musketmen on the surrounding Mountains, but the AI's Knights just trample them underfoot.

In my last game, a Huge Regent where I went for Domination, I built a few Spearmen during the Despotic era to guard against AI 'empty city hunters' and wandering Barbarians and then just forgot all about defenders. I think they were still there until I disbanded them a few AIs from victory.

So...

What defensive Units are your favourite, and why?

Spearmen?
Pikemen?
Musketmen?
Riflemen?
Infantry?
Mechanised Infantry?

What have any of them ever done for you?

 

[Diviner]

I think it's better if I choose when to battle with whom. Not the AI. Instead of defensive units I try to eliminate all invaders before they get a chance to do damage. I rarely build solely defensive units for garrisoning purposes and I think most players do likewise.

Of course there are scenarios where I need defenders. For example to have units in your stack that are expendable (I would be happier if a pikeman dies instead of a knight).

The only defender I frequently build is infantry. They come at an age where they outclass any attacker (except for sipahi) by wide margin and provide a good cover for your stack of artilleries also.

 

[LouisXII]

Enough said. Defensive strategies rely on generally weak units and lots and lots of terrain cover and fortifications, all of which do not come in generous quantities especially earlier in the game.

There's no need to "defend it all". Just focus on the border cities - 6 to 10 defenders depending on the strength of the particular AI nearby. They can act as a stopgap before fast attackers can come and crush them.

The only exception to this is Infantry. They can tip the balance decisively for Defense, at least until you can build tanks; the solution is to bombard, bombard, bombard and to apply numerical superiority. In general though I do not like to conduct any large scale offensive campaigns between the discovery of Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transportation, for this very reason. Artillery + INF combos take literally forever to take anything, while a Bomber + Tank combo, while more expensive and thus generally available in smaller numbers, will cut through quickly and just as effectively. Speed is of the essence.

 

[vmxa]

I love these tales of AI units whacking defenders like taking candy from a baby. All possible, I would agree, but I do not see much of it. Perhaps it is a function of letting the AI get too strong. Not too strong for you, but too strong for where it should be.

I do not recall seeing a sword attack a fortified pike in the open, but have seen them bypass them many times. One of the things that has to be watched in some of the massive war games I have played in and that includes SG's, is making a town to strong on defense.

We stick one more defender in and now the AI will not attack the town any longer. We want them to attack the town, but that extra pike made they go elsewhere. We remove it and they come back and attack.

What is needed on defense in a given game at a given point in time in that game, varies from town to town and situation to situation. This is where having lots of playing experience comes in, you have a feel for what is required.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I used to have a custom mod that, among other things, reworked the game so that there were no strictly defensive units. Spearmen were 2.2.1, Pikes 2.3.1, and so on. Hoplites were 3.3.1, making the Greeks something of a menace -- ironless swordsmen! Speaking of the Greeks, spear on spear battles brought an air of history to the game.

The longer I play Civilization III, the less I use strictly defensive units. I don't even begin training them en masse until the Infantry stage, since I usually skip Nationalism. Part of the reason is economic: since the AI calculates your strength based on Attack stats, I can maintain a reasonable level of strength without having to pay maintenance for dozens of fortified pikemen turn after turn. I share Diviner's preference for choosing who battles whom.

Before Infantry, I will train defensive units for particular circumstances -- for instance, recently I played a game where I had no horses or iron, and had to go to war with my neighbor using only archers and catapults. There, I also trained spearmen because I needed to protect the catapults. If I acquire an island colony that isn't very productive, I will send a stack of defensive units there, because in the event of an attack it may not be efficient enough to provide for its own defense. This is something I do only when I can afford it, however. Many times my colonies languish with just a token defender for centuries.

 

[PaperBeetle]

I'm certainly familiar with the problem of losing disproportionately often on defense. I presume it is an illusion - some kind of selective memory / confirmation bias problem. As such, it is one of the situations I would like to test empirically, but it is pretty tricky to get the stats, given that by defintion it happens during the computer's turn, when everything is flying by too fast to properly record. Plus in a normal game I go to considerable lengths to avoid getting attacked anyway, so there aren't many data points available.

To answer the original question, I build small numbers of defensive units, mostly for tasks like soaking up hits that would otherwise damage my attack stack. The infantryman is probably the defender that sticks out the most in terms of value-for-money-compared-to-the-value-for-money-of-contemporary-attackers. Which seems like the most helpful way to compare defensive units across the eras? It helps that muskets and rifles are both pretty low on this index, so it's such a huge relief when infantry come along.

 

[Raliuven]

I think it is more than an illusion or selective memory. As has already been mentioned, I think the illusion goes hand-in-hand with the 'defense strategy' as it relies on the AI to decide to attack. If the AI calculates that it stands a good chance of winning it will attack - and thus win what appears to be a disproportionate amount of the time. Otherwise it does not attack and it appears that your defender does nothing.

So the 'illusion' is the difference between what you wanted and what you got for your efforts. The point of a defensive unit is often thought of as a way to kill incoming units. In reality, the idea should (IMO) be to make the AI not attack, thus making it avoid a certain area or force it to move in a way that makes it vulnerable to your counterattack. Thus if my pike on a mountain prevents a sword from using it as an approach to my city and the invading sword is stuck on a plain tile instead, the pike has done its job. If it is attacked, then it has failed even if it succeeds and wins this particular time. Eventually, and probably sooner than I'd like, it will be weed whacked by incoming attackers.

So to answer the post, I do produce a select few (and read that very few and rarely ever spears/pikes) defensive units to create choke points and as artillery cover. Nothing is more beautiful than a walled city on a hill guarded by muskets and stocked with artillery that the AI decides to 'walk' past to get to that city 3 tiles away that has no defender.

And, as has already been mentioned, a spear or two thrown into a stack of swords/cats can be cost effective on occasion.

 

[vmxa]

Raliuven, I agree that normaly the point of a defense is to discourage attacks. The games were you are facing large numbers such as an invasion of an island or playing an AW, you often need to get the AI to toss away lots of units attacking into a defense it cannot beat (you hope).

Invasions allow you to set up a strong defense and the AI will still attack. AW you often want to get them to attack in a few places and that gets tricker as you have to make it appear to be defeatable, but not be.

This is mainly done with bombardment in the town and walls and maybe a hill and a river. In normal games, I just want to discourage them from coming at all as I am better off attacking them.

 

[MarkK]

Defense is just Good Offense waiting for the moment to kick ass.

 

[MarkK]

Defense is stagnate; Offense is fluid...

 

[Raliuven]

Raliuven, I agree that normaly the point of a defense is to discourage attacks. The games were you are facing large numbers such as an invasion of an island or playing an AW, you often need to get the AI to toss away lots of units attacking into a defense it cannot beat (you hope).

Invasions allow you to set up a strong defense and the AI will still attack. AW you often want to get them to attack in a few places and that gets tricker as you have to make it appear to be defeatable, but not be.

This is mainly done with bombardment in the town and walls and maybe a hill and a river. In normal games, I just want to discourage them from coming at all as I am better off attacking them.

Excellent points and I don't think there is any doubt that you are the master of this type of warfare. Establishing an invasion is probably the most enjoyable part of game for me, second only to the sick sense of satisfaction when I get a 4 turn SF up and running. It seems like lately I haven't had any landings that I really felt were in danger but the thought of moving to Sid is little scary.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

In my last game, a Huge Regent where I went for Domination, I built a few Spearmen during the Despotic era to guard against AI 'empty city hunters' and wandering Barbarians and then just forgot all about defenders. I think they were still there until I disbanded them a few AIs from victory.

That's generally what I do. Build a few very early defensive units and then focus on Attackers, upgrading the Defenders as and when I get the chance. One of the problems is that the Ancient Attacker (the Swordsman) has the same Defense as the Spearman, so unless you have no Iron, Spearmen are pretty useless. Pikes and Muskets are better, but considering the way the AI judges Military Strength (1.5xAttack vs 1xDefense, IIRC), a Medieval Infantry is worth a couple Pikemen, so they aren't really worth it - even moreso if you get Knights, who defend almost as well as Pikes.

What defensive Units are your favourite, and why?

Infantry. Solid Attacker, excellent Defender, and you'll be wanting them to safeguard your Artillery until you get Tanks to stomp enemy Infantry. MI are nice, but the only reason I personally consider them better (relatively speaking) than Infantry is because of the Movement increase - Modern Armour are simply so good that MI aren't worth it (and, of course, that assumes the game lasts that long; I think the last serious game I played ended after Panzers and before MI, and I play very slowly and conservatively).

 

[MarkK]

You can waste all your time on numbers and miss Sid's whole point..

 

[Buttercup]

I think the table would look something like this:

1. Infantry 8/10 (just frustratingly slow)
2. Spearmen 6/10 (right place at the right time)
3. Mechanised Infantry 5/10 (deters the AI well)
4. Pikemen 4/10 (for positions without horses)
5. Musketmen 3/10 (no real advantage over pikemen)
6. Riflemen 1/10 (only useful if one has literally zero resources or needs an emergency rush-build defence)

 

[Lanzelot]

If the AI calculates that it stands a good chance of winning it will attack - and thus win what appears to be a disproportionate amount of the time. Otherwise it does not attack and it appears that your defender does nothing.

Very good observation! Right to the point.

As to my preferred defensive unit:

• On low level games no defense is necessary, as the AI is so weak that it can't attack you anyway.
• On higher level games, the AI is very strong in the beginning of the game (it normally takes all of the ancient age for the human player to catch up or even surpass the enemy.) On large maps or archipelago, this is not that important, as it takes a while before the AI can reach you, and you should have your defenses ready by then. On small maps however, you need to think about defense pratically right from turn 1 on... In this situation, my preferred defensive unit is the Horseman! Station it centrally, have a strategic road network, and then the horseman can defend both borders simultaneously. (You need to make sure though, that you won't get attacked from both sides simultaneously...). With a decent horsemen force, you don't even need to fear an Immortal attack: the horses will eliminate them, before they reach your towns. However, if the attacker has Hoplites, Numidians or Roman Legions, you will need to add a few catapults to your defensive force.

Of course the above is a bit exaggerated... In certain situations you will need 1-2 spearmen here or there to cover important points.

So to sum it up: the best way to repulse an AI invasion is:

• a well-connected road network
• a large portion of horsemen, strategically posted to cover a 12 tile diameter
• some catapults
• a few spearmen to cover the horsemen and catapults in case some of the AI attackers indeed reach your towns.
• walls/hill towns in certain strategically important locations. (The Chinese Wall is probably overkill. Don't waste 300 shields on it. Just spend 40-60 shields for 2-3 walls in towns that really need them.)

After the ancient age, defense should become easier, as you should have caught up with the AI by then. (Sid of course is always a completely different game...) But in general, if you still need to defend in later ages, use the them mechanism:
lots of Knights (Cavs), some Trebuchets (Cannons) to soften the attackers and enough Pikes (Muskets) to cover the vulnerable horse-based and artillery-type units.

Of course it's true that a Knight can defend as well as a Pikeman, but you don't want to expose a precious 70-shield unit to attacks, if a cheap 30-shield unit can absorbe that attack as well...


The above defensive setup has two advantages:

• usually it defends even better than a purely "defensive defense"
• and it allows you very easily to switch from defense to offense on the fly, if the right opportunity for that presents itself...

So my credo is: "offense is the best defense"

 

[Lanzelot]

I just realize, some of what I said, has already been said before...

Of course there are scenarios where I need defenders. For example to have units in your stack that are expendable (I would be happier if a pikeman dies instead of a knight).

Sorry, overlooked that the first time...

 

[Lord Emsworth]

While we're on the subject of non-builds, I'm often fascinated by my own reluctance to build Defensive Units.

When I first started playing civ3 I would pack my towns with the latest available defensive Unit, only to watch the AI remove Infantry with Cavalry as if I had left Spearman holding the fort. I've since tried all manner of ways to make a defensive build impenetrable, but with little result other than 7 Infantry Fortified in a Barricade where the AI has Cavalry.

Hmmm ... You are very close with Infantry in a barricade. I have found that veteran Infantries, backed with a single artillery units are not ever attacked if you put them into a fortress. OK, not ever is not quite true. It is Cavs, Infantries and lower which won't attack - at all.
See here too:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10974510#post10974510

But that does not appear to be the only example. There is more:
· eInfantry + fortress, flat terrain
· vInfantry + fortress, mountain
· vInfantry + Artillery + fortress, flat terrain


(All this holds for C3C. In Vanilla I have found that you merely need a rInfantry in a fortress on any terrain to make the AI ignore it.)

 

[Quintillus]

Infantry is my favourite, for reasons already mentioned. I'd put Musketman as my least favorite. It's marginally better than the Pikeman but costs twice as much; in many cases the Pikeman is preferable. Riflemen at least have a good enough defence value to counteract the offensive units of their time, even if you are usually better skipping them and going straight to Infantry. Mechanized Infantry also rank fairly lowly for me; usually I'd rather have Synthetic Armor. They're good if you're facing a big tank invasion, but if you really need them because your own tanks aren't doing well, things aren't going that well to begin with.

I haven't had defensive units perform lousily in general. There have been occasions, such as when an AI Warrior owned my Veteran Infantry Fortified on a Mountain. That was embarrassing. But by and large my defenders do as well as can be expected.

That Infantry was, if I remember, on an isthmus, or else the Warrior probably wouldn't have even bothered attacking.

 

[RickFGS]

I have a weak spot for numidian mercs, they are more costly than hoplites, but carthage is industrial, so it allows me to set up a sort of fortress/barricade frontline, that i can fill when an enemy declares war on me, the bonus of the fortress plus the 3 defense points of the merc and an archer/catapult behind is just fun all day long against an human player for example.

Against the AI, offense is the best defense.

 

[Richie0]

i put one defender (upgraded to the latest) in each of my border/coastal towns, with 2-3 fast attackers (horsemen/knights, cavalry are too busy taking towns!) shared between 3-4 towns for counter defence.

if i have to allow AI troops through my land (usually not necessary) so that they can be used as cannon fodder/distraction in a war with another AI, then i put a defender in EVERY town they pass, because i know that after the war is over, the AI with its troops in my land WILL declare war on me. at worst, i end up with 30-40 defenders.

afterwards, when the piece of crap has been reduced to one town (or finished off by another AI to avoid treaty breaking rep hit), i'll disband defenders in the inner towns.