Deities on Earth

[beetle]

@Shark Diver I think you should do whatever you perceive to be the most fun / least unfun. For me, the discussion is part of the fun. So a course correction and some polite instructions/requests to the next player(s) is my own preference for your path. But I am almost certainly one of the players making choices that you do not agree with, so please do as you like.

I remain optimistic we can pull a CV off this map. Maybe for some folks playing, that is no big deal. But I am amazed!

 

[Shark Diver]

@Shark Diver I think you should do whatever you perceive to be the most fun / least unfun. For me, the discussion is part of the fun. So a course correction and some polite instructions/requests to the next player(s) is my own preference for your path. But I am almost certainly one of the players making choices that you do not agree with, so please do as you like.

I remain optimistic we can pull a CV off this map. Maybe for some folks playing, that is no big deal. But I am amazed!

I think what it comes down to is that I really enjoy micro-managing every single decision in my quest for t200 victories (I only have a few). It is perfecting the game that keeps bringing me back. When I'm playing a game and it isn't finished by t250, it feels like a slog to me. I was concerned this would feel like that as well, but the format itself lends to that.

When I'm playing my own game, and realize I have made a settling mistake, it's almost enough to get me to reload. Same goes for the settling this game. I get the reasons behind each choice, and they are defensible, but they aren't necessarily the choices I would have made and I find myself grinding my teeth. I might be in too much of a perfectionist mode, but it wasn't feeling like fun, even though I enjoy the conversation here. When the conversation is more enjoyable than the game, it's probably time to step away from this game.

I will be watching how you guys proceed, and might even chirp up with some suggestions or comments.

One decision made this game that I disagree with is renewing the Open Borders with Shaka t160. Impis prancing around in my lands and blocking workers is not enjoyable. Why not cancel the OB and send Impis scattered to the winds? It would slow his warmongering down immensely and hopefully prevent him from steam rolling. We want him caught in that war for as long as possible.

 

[beetle]

One decision made this game that I disagree with is renewing the Open Borders with Shaka t160.

Well, that one I understand. The idea is to let him send his units N with as little friction as possible. In my experience, he is otherwise likely to start accumulating units in his territory. His is not so very inclined to swim around us.

Yes, it is annoying, and we have enough workers now that it really is a bother. But more than a fair trade off in my experience. Eventually, I expect him to decline OB. So it is also a decent mechanism for insight to his temperament.

Yes, we want him want him caught in war(s) for as long as possible. We also want him burning hammer on units getting killed. I don’t see him steam rolling becaue even he wipes out Harun, Amad, and Askia — he still has Caesar and Attila to contain him. Plus I think we will get our UU and Cannons quick enough that he is no threat to us.

 

[Nizef]

I understand the frustration about the open borders. I must say it was one of the thougher decisions I had to make. In one of my own games I would typically not have agreed to it. My thought process went along the lines what @beetle described above. I also felt that this would keep our play flexible going forward. Sure, it will delay the work of our civilian units with a few turns. But out of the options available a renewal, in this particular case, would enable us to focus on a CV even better than declining the deal.

 

[vadalaz]

@Shark Diver I don't want the game to feel like a burden to anyone, you're free to step down of course. I do hope you remain active in the conversation and derive enjoyment from that.

This format has an inherent problem (or feature, depending on how you look at it) of balancing the active player's freedom and the team's guidance. I think we haven't found the best way to go about this yet - there might've been too little discussion on what the plan is. Perhaps a slower approach would've been better. I believe we'll figure it out eventually.

I'll have a close look at the T161 save tonight and post my thoughts on the current situation before playing out the turns.

 

[Nizef]

I would also welcome a deeper discussion on what to do next. However, I think this has already been an interesting format and a way of improving on my own play by the exchange of ideas. Anyway, I liked this so much that I already thought that one possibility for a "game 2", could be a Mediterranean map with TSL. What do you think?

 

[raider980]

I'm up for more discussion, I'll mostly listen though, and ask questions I'm sure. Ideologies should be coming up soon and a plan for that would definitely be good. We have a lot of happiness but with 20 civs in the game I can imagine the ideological pressure will be gigantic if we have the minority ideology.

I'll definitely play another one after this. Mediterranean sounds fun. I enjoy it more than the multiplayer. I like the multiplayer but its too slow. Getting to play multiple turns at once in a succession makes the game flow much better.

 

[vadalaz]

Anyway, I liked this so much that I already thought that one possibility for a "game 2", could be a Mediterranean map with TSL.

Sounds good!


Here are some notes I took when examining the save:

Level 3 spy:

Rig election in Valletta in 4 turns then move somewhere else.

Option A: Try some coups. Samarkand first as we're just 40 influence behind England at the moment.

Option B: Try to steal Chemistry from Tenochtitlan.

Industrial era level 1 spy to the capital to level up maybe?

Faith:

Current faith output is low. Need to ally both Wittenberg and Lhasa and finish those Temples, 80-100 fpt is the target here. I don't know about Pagodas. I'd probably just start saving up faith for Great People now.

Culture and ideology:

Culture output is low as well. 2 cultural CSs got killed by Rome and Mongolia, those are hard to liberate at the moment, Brazil is allies with Buenos Aires - send Australian scout to Argentina to find them? Alternatively just DoW Brazil and meet the CS that way

Finishing Aesthetics + Rationalism and getting a level 3 ideological tenet will take forever.

I think we should buy all of Monty's and Pocatello's Coal to secure first ideology. We can get an ideology in 4 turns: Industrialization finishes in 3 turns if we work all specialists, then with a loan we can buy 3 factories. Perhaps we should buy 6 factories actually, as our production is still really low.

Some ideology options that I see are:

- Order 2 freebies + quick Five-Year Plan, then finish Aesthetics and maybe Rationalism. Focus on production and science.

- Freedom to Universal Suffrage (we're getting our third natural Golden Age soon), finish Aesthetics, then Freedom to Media Culture. Ignore Rationalism. Get Statue of Liberty ASAP for the production.

- Same as above, but go Foreign Legions first, team up with Rome and the Zulus and bully the weak. Get tons of peace deal gold and some cities

- Autocracy, just get 2 freebies (cheaper units and Futurism) and start killing things. Buy battleships and take coastal cities for tourism. Finish Aesthetics and Rationalism.

Diplomacy:

Probably want to gift something to Gustavus and try to get a DoF with Sweden for the great people bonus.

The New World is peacefully sim-citying. I don't like that. Monty is easy to bribe there.

I think we can bribe-and-DoW Harun here and get a good peace deal out of him. Maybe Askia too.

Tech:

Finish Industrialization and buy factories ASAP. Radar beeline after that, I think (perhaps with one bulb + Oxford). It sucks to delay Archaeology, but I want to be able to propose something on the next World Congress and we need to enter Modern and ally some CSs for that.

Edit: 3-food jungle tiles

I suggest not chopping the resourceless flatland 3f jungles. It's a 3f / 2 sci tile, which I like better than a 4f farm. It takes 1 extra population to get 2 base beakers in a city (1 from the citizen, 1 more from Library and Public School), so working a jungle tile effectively gives you the science output of a city that's 1 pop higher. Trading posts make those tiles even better.

 

[raider980]

Wow, that's next level right there.

I've been wondering about ideologies. Most AI go Order right? That would be the safe pick with this many Civs. But then Freedom is better for CV usually I think. And if we're going for CV then we are aiming to be the Tourism leader so we'll be pushing out ideological pressure. We probably shouldn't give an AI our open borders until we find out if we have the same ideology right? Then I always give Civs with the same ideology OB to give me pressure - that's the correct thing to do?

I suggest not chopping the resourceless flatland 3f jungles.

Hey, I've been doing something right! I've been building TP's on them. And I've been purposely not building plantations on the 3f Dye, I don't know if we need that much Dye as luxes.

 

[Nizef]

My five cents:
Spies
Samarkand (L3) and Addis Ababa (L1)

Faith
Yes, let´s construct some more temples

Culture&Ideologies
Buy factories would be nice. At least 3-4.
Freedom or Order.
Do we need to finish Rationalism? I would prioritize Aestethics

Diplomacy
Let´s bribe Monty to have some fun. I also like the idea of friendship with Gustav.

Tech
I left two GS for you to use to maximize the benefit. Could we use one for Archeology?

 

[raider980]

I think I'm starting to get the hang of this high level play, maybe - I was thinking of the Order option. If we buy 3 factories right after Industrialism, then we can take Order on the next turn and with the free policies take the 25% reduction in GP and also the one that reduces the cost of purchasing buildings and then buy the rest of the factories on the cheap. We probably don't even need the happiness from monuments since we have so much happiness and most other AI will probably go Order also.

 

[beetle]

Our tech rate is relatively strong. I vote one GS for Archeology, then one as soon as we get Electricity in the queue. Meanwhile, Oxford. So the conventional way to hit Ideologies.

I don’t think we will be first to Ideologies, but I would bet we will be first to Freedom.

WRT policies, I’ll suggest

1. Rationalism until Ideologies;
2. Then three in Ideologies (presumably two of those are freebies);
3. Then one more in Aesthetics (for double hammers towards Opera Houses, Museums, Broadcast Towers;
4. Then back to Rationalism until we get the best three of the five.

Meanwhile, we talk about if the third tier Tourism tenet is stronger play than filling out Aesthetics.

 

[vadalaz]

Re: tech

We have 19 turns to enter Modern era. Oxford will take ~6 turns to build, so we should start building it in 13 turns at the latest. Ironworks finishes in 1 or 2 turns depending on what tiles we work, that leaves us with 11-12 turns to build things in the capital.

I could bulb Archaeology on the turn I finish Ironworks and start Louvre immediately. With Ironworks and Factory in the capital we're looking at +12 raw hammers and +10% to all hammers on top of that, so we should be able to finish Louvre in ~11 turns, but we'll have to sacrifice some growth for it. Everyone good with this plan?

I would like to finish temples before we start spamming Archaeologists and culture buildings. If a nearby AI gets Archaeology I'll switch production to Archaeologists immediately and try to get that AI involved in as many wars as possible.

It seems we won't have to bulb Electricity here because our RAs with Shaka and Augustus end on turns 169 and 174. I'd prefer to save one scientist for a late-game tech then.

Re: ideology

I need everyone's input on what ideology to choose. Pick only one please. I'm assuming we'll be first to ideologies and get 2 freebies regardless of our choice.

I'd probably go with Freedom myself. Order's very good for fast games, but I don't think this one is ending any time soon. Freedom offers really nice long-term bonuses.

 

[Shark Diver]

Re: tech

We have 19 turns to enter Modern era. Oxford will take ~6 turns to build, so we should start building it in 13 turns at the latest. Ironworks finishes in 1 or 2 turns depending on what tiles we work, that leaves us with 11-12 turns to build things in the capital.

I could bulb Archaeology on the turn I finish Ironworks and start Louvre immediately. With Ironworks and Factory in the capital we're looking at +12 raw hammers and +10% to all hammers on top of that, so we should be able to finish Louvre in ~11 turns, but we'll have to sacrifice some growth for it. Everyone good with this plan?

I would like to finish temples before we start spamming Archaeologists and culture buildings. If a nearby AI gets Archaeology I'll switch production to Archaeologists immediately and try to get that AI involved in as many wars as possible.

It seems we won't have to bulb Electricity here because our RAs with Shaka and Augustus end on turns 169 and 174. I'd prefer to save one scientist for a late-game tech then.

Re: ideology

I need everyone's input on what ideology to choose. Pick only one please. I'm assuming we'll be first to ideologies and get 2 freebies regardless of our choice.

I'd probably go with Freedom myself. Order's very good for fast games, but I don't think this one is ending any time soon. Freedom offers really nice long-term bonuses.

That plan is reasonable considering you have to wait for that final Uni to build. I normally like to pre-build Oxford around now, but that's not an option here.

You're going to need around 20 Archeologists. I think we can assume at least 5 in Australia, but with all the barbs there, maybe keep a couple of units there to deal with that? Send the early Archeologists swimming to grab the hard sites early and use excess units to secure the site on Africa so they can be excavated last. Also recommend getting that next policy in Aesthetics soon so you can get the culture buildings up ASAP. Doesn't do you any good to have Archeologists spammed if there's no place to put the artifacts, and it appears most of the expos haven't even built a 2nd Culture building yet.

I was thinking Freedom for the normal reasons, but I also think early Foreign Legions would be dominant right about now.

My 2 cents.

 

[raider980]

Plan sounds good to me. For ideology, Freedom really is going to help us most. We're going for CV and nothing beats Media Culture so I say Freedom.

And to clarify: This would be my thinking so just want to make sure I got it:

• We taking the third Freedom tenet, Universal Suffrage first, with our next policy right? Or Foreign Legions are an option too, but that would be a long time to get back around to Univ. Suff and we have a lot of specialists to work.
• We need to finish Aesthetics because we're going CV, so we are not putting any more into Rationalism?
• And the first policy in Aesthetics should be the 50% boost to the buildings?

 

[Nizef]

So Freedom it is!

 

[vadalaz]

Alright, last question.

Is peace deal abuse OK? I can make ~350 gpt from peace deals by turn 167 and seemingly keep all the key DoFs. If that's too cheesy, I'll play normally.

I'm on the fence about it.

 

[Nizef]

I am fine with this exploit. This is no ordinary game and I am a little unsure of where we stand at the moment. And our production suck big time, so we need those Factories sooner rather than later.

 

[raider980]

I'm not even sure what peace deal abuse is; I didn't think we were at war. So I don't object.

 

[vadalaz]

I'm not even sure what peace deal abuse is; I didn't think we were at war. So I don't object.

You declare war and make peace 5 turns later. AIs will offer you gpt for peace even if they have a stronger military, as long as your own gpt is high. That's the short version; Tiberiu has a very thorough guide on it over in S&T.