Deity Semi Isolation

[Pedro78]

I'll play the Mao map when I find some motivation -- it's the typical example of where the "meta-game" doesn't work. But it's nonetheless a fairly generous map once you've dealt with the barbs. Without marble it would be a nightmare though. Of course, the meta-game works for most isolated starts, just as the "tech to cuirs, roll over the map" approach works for most Pangaeas, but you can't play really good games if you don't leverage everything you have, and that goes through thinking outside the box (I hate that expression, but couldn't find a better one). I can now think of very many isolation maps where I wouldn't go straight Monarchy -> Optics. We should play a "rich" iso map on the Workshop someday -- lately I tend to learn more from good starts than from poor ones.

Of course, playing on video is very hard -- I tried it and couldn't play satisfying games while still playing fast enough.

And ultimately, if someone tried to learn Deity Isolation from scratch, something like "just play the map" is not so helpful

That's not exactly your case, is it?

next to JC without metal

I guess Elephants
Depends on the map. On the last Saladin map you posted, GK could have been JC no problem as it was easy to remove his access to iron. Otherwise... depends on the cost of gifting a city. Even after the gift you're still going to tech Archery & monitor him closely so idk. "just play the map" I guess.

I'll try and post a documented write-up of the Hatchy game. Is Axe/WC rush allowed, or does it have to be construction?

 

[Lain]

Any rush is okay

 

[Pedro78]

Wow

Spoiler :

Even Sid's advisor is screaming "Axes please" lol. Going AH in case I find horses, but otherwise it's full Axes on Justy. But knowing you I don't think there's horses nearby lol. Hatchy is a very good leader for an Axe rush aswell though.

 

[Lain]

I thought

Spoiler :

axe rush is something you do when copper is right in your capital basically? How long is that option viable? Just hooking that up takes forever.

 

[Lain]

One thing about axe rushes in general that I always wondered... assuming you attack before Writing. Don't you go in completely blind sometimes? Without vision there could be his stack there and you only know after moving in and it's gg. That's why scouting before sending in Horse Archers is so important.

 

[Pedro78]

The latest Axe-rush I've ever done was on T67 against a 7-cities Cyrus with BFC iron. He was wiped off the map around T90-T95 (had settled a few more cities in the meantime). AIs don't have a stack until they're done with early expansion. Warring with one-movement units is slow, but looking at how good the land is here we won't have any trouble recovering.

 

[sampsa]

Didn't Fippy do an axe rush in your semi-isolated Stalin game, Lain (vs.Hannibal)? IIRC it worked out like a charm.

 

[Pedro78]

The Stalin game was much easier as it was with an Agg leader & BFC copper, that's what allowed Fippy to take out Hannibal so quickly. Here having to settle a second city makes the whole process much slower, but it's still much better than waiting for Construction imo.

Doing some video encoding atm so I'm afraid to open Civ on the weak laptop, but I'll try and take out Justi tonight

 

[Pedro78]

Okay. Played my usual 75.5 turns:

Spoiler :

SIP
Techs: Mining-BW-AH-Writing-Hunting-Pottery-Aesthetics (in progress)

Note: you almost always have to get at least one spearman when Axe-rushing, because when an AI has metal you can't know for sure whether it has horses (it will never say stuff like "fear my chariot" when it has Swords already). And a couple of chariots can kill the whole rush.

Builds: Worker-Warrior-Settler-Worker-Worker-Barracks-Axemen in Thebes. Barracks -> Axemen in Memphis

Nothing too special during the first 50 turns. Kind of a slow start for an Axe-rush. Otherwise very standard opener. Justinian Oracles Monarchy on T48. Good thing because I’ll have all those wineries after taking him out. Bad thing also because he might tech Feudalism very early. Thought I had screenshots starting on T52, but apparently not -- not very interesting stuff anyway.

T52.

Writing and OB with Justy. Time to scout him out. I don't road into him as every worker is chopping and commerce isn't essential right now, so no reason to dealy DoW.

T56.

Buddhism spread. I immediately convert (not of great immediate use, but Hatchy is SPI), and after that Justy will eventually end up only Cautious after a double DoW -- useful in case things go south.

T63.

DoW. Time for screenies

2 cities vs 5. Justinian was kind of slow with expansion, building Oracle & ToA in Capital didn't help him..

T64.

Overall I had very average luck in fights. No lucky wins & no horrible rolls.

T69.

Justinian still won't talk, but troops are coming in steadily -- Axemen are very cheap and there was a lot of forests around Thebes.

T70.

CR2 Axes have fairly good odds against Archers:

I kill the Archer on the hill East of Adrianople (68%, better than letting him back into a city) and -

First ceasefire. Of course, he opens his borders again on the next turn.

T72.

It appears that Constantinople is very lightly guarded. Being on flatland, it's the obvious next target. Otherwise I'd have gone for the closer, smaller cities first, but here there's no reason not to go for his capital as I have enough troops -- only need one turn to heal up.

T73.

Second DoW. See that Settler party NW of my stack? That's the reason why Constantinople was so lightly guarded -- have to attack quickly as first thing the AI usually does after that is to build a couple more defenders.

T74.

Two things here. First, I bait a Sword with my warrior -

Second, I send two more Axemen in, in case what I’ve already sent isn’t enough to take Const. (unlikely). The hill 2E of Antioch only has an Axeman escorting a Settler. These units have the code UNITAI_ESCORT and won’t attack the city.

T75.

The bait worked:

Constantinople only has 3 defenders so I decide to attack it over the river. Hurts a bit but I have the numbers and if I send all the troops in and attack next turn I risk losing Antioch or him reinforcing Constantinople even more.

And…

My CR3 Axe even won a 27% fight (another unit lost a 70% fight right after, so I don’t feel guilty at all)

Great General born in Thebes.

With all the wounded units left hanging in the open I’m bound to lose a couple of Axemen IBT, but it was well worth it and both cities are safe (Antioch & Const.).

T76.

Lost 2 Axemen IBT. Kill one Axeman and one Settler on this turn.


Now at 5 vs 3 cities, 11 Axemen, 1 Spear & 1 GG left. I have gold mines, wineries & several villages. GG. The Spearman proved useless btw.

Units killed/lost:

Not the greatest ratio ever. Would've been harder if Justinian's cities were on hills, but here there was plenty of breathing room. Playing with a CRE leader really helped aswell.


Btw Thebes was whipped 4-2, always working max food, and Memphis was whipped 3-2, working Corn+Copper

Took a few saves. Not a whole lot to mention. If anything I'd say Axe rushes need a bit of timing for whip overflows & chops. Also need to do proper roading before war & pay attention to settler parties. Not much different than a WC or HA rush.


Edit - but attacking at Construction would probably have been a nightmare. Certainly doable but very slow -- by that time he would have had ~10 cities & a real stack..

 

[Lain]

Nice, thanks a lot. Quick question for now, will probably be more later.

On the first attack you had 7 axes vs 3 defenders. That's 94% odds to take the city if I use the combat calc thingy right (barely use it, just know it existed).

If he whipped another Axe though, that reduces odds to something like 60% though (is that right?). Did you somehow know he wouldn't do that?

I mean, small margins and all, but failing the first attack basically means game over, no? With Horse Archers it's possible to shuffle / threaten another city quickly. With Axemen you either take this one or you take nothing. Phew. Scary thing to bet the game on. So how much room is there to get screwed by unlucky rolls?

PS: Okay, spy points show he is not building an Axe in Adrianople. He could have moved a sword inside though. 90% is good, but good enough to bet a game on?

 

[Pedro78]

TBH I didn't monitor the spy points (was playing quite fast), but let's say he added one more unit IBT. Whether it's an Axe, Sword, Spear or Archer it will come out with 0% fortify bonus and no promotions. And then, even if I can't take the city on this turn, what are the odds that I won't even be able to clean up the last wounded defender on the next turn?
Of course it's a possibility, and you could be safer if declaring 1 or 2 turns later, but I think that in this case the odds were in my favor.

In this particular case, losing the first battle wouldn't have been a game-ender as Justinian was so weak. In other games it could have been gg indeed.

And either way, I think waiting for Construction would have been a bigger gamble -- he had Monarchy on T48, on T95 he would definitely have had LBs, and that's a real showstopper for Axes+Catapults.