Deity Strategy Tweaks to Survive Early DOWs

[LFRANK]

I've finally feeling froggy enough to start playing at deity level. However, in about a dozen games I've noticed that the AI tends to react pretty much the same way to me.; they all attack me.

Setup: Random civ, deity level, small lakes map, abundant resources, high sea level, climate setting 0

In every game that followed my civ seemed to start on the least useful tiles and were slow to develop, taking more turns to complete common techs due to the poor productivity of the city. Okay, every starting site can't be perfect but over the course of several games one of them should have been more viable.

In the first few games I played as I normally did at king-level and was almost immediately attacked (several times) by the first civ I encountered. Granted, my armies were weak, so...

The next few games I began building an army first before any infrastructure. Normally at least 3 warriors and 3 archers to defend myself before starting to expand. That didn't seem to work either except for one game where Norway hated my guts and attacked me for over 100 turns. Fortunately, their only approach was through a narrow valley where I'd positioned a barracks + several archers that defended like the champs they were. I managed to whittle their army down from 700+ to less than 200 at that defensive point alone. However, I too was blocked from expanding through that point which allowed Rome to join the fray with their 1400+ army which soon breached my defense and I quit the game. I do consider it a win though, if only for my poor army being able to hold off a superior foe. The only win.

After that, the games went pretty much the same way. One or more civs would take umbrage at me and swoop in to defeat me. I would have a decent army, good relationships with the civs (most were surprise DOWs from 'friendly' nations) and due to my productivity poor cities I'd be overwhelmed in short order.

Now I've watched several YouTubers playing deity-level games and they seldom encounter this massive surge of attacks until later in the game and then the armies facing them are much more reasonable in size. Barbarians yes, but not other civs.

So my question is, is there something I can tweak in my strategy to minimize the risk of other civs declaring against me so early in the game?

 

[MrRadar]

So my question is, is there something I can tweak in my strategy to minimize the risk of other civs declaring against me so early in the game?

Play diplomacy. Send a delegation to them the turn you meet - that's already a good start +3 in diplo relations. Send a trade route to their city - another +3. See what their agenda is, try to satisfy it. If its Mongols, don't build a single cavalry. If it's Aztec, don't improve any luxuries they don't have or improve and gift it to them right away. Satisfying agenda gives +7 diplo. Gifts work also to others. Make promises if they ask and don't break them. As soon as their negative first impression decays and you see they turn green faced, offer a Declaration of Friendship. DoF means immunity from war. After you signed one, you can do mostly whatever you want. As long as you offer a renewal the turn DoF expires, they'll likely agree. This way you may complete a deity game being friendly with everyone, allied with most, with minimal army and without a single shot fired. Well, except for some rocks tossed at barbs.

Edit: and some leaders, like Gilgamesh, will sign a DoF immediately upon meeting. It is almost cheating.

 

[Bangau]

You might be unlucky, for I definitely do not get bad start AND early aggression every time on deity. But likely you could use some of the following tips (in the meantime MrRadar has already answered, I'll add a few that he didn't have yet):
- On other speeds than standard the AI may not always accept a delegation the turn you meet them.
- Bribe the AI to like you: give gifts, look how this effects your relationship (click the 'heart icon'), you can get as much as +10 from this which is always enough to make them like you.
- If an AI is friendly towards you, they'll often agree to a formal friendship. If they do not, you're likely in trouble, that's a good sign that they are planning a surprise war against you. I believe they also decline friendship if they feel you are competing for the same area to settle in, but I'm not 100% sure about that one.

 

[AlannaT]

Because the others already pointed out the diplomatic options at your disposal, here are two other things.

In the first few games I played as I normally did at king-level

Am I understanding this correctly, that you normally play King level and from there jumped to Diety? If so, maybe don't skip the levels inbetween.

Random civ, deity level, small lakes map, abundant resources, high sea level, climate setting 0

High sea level = less land = more potential for border conflicts. Why did you choose that setting?

 

[LFRANK]

First, thx for all the quick replies and suggestions.

You might be unlucky, for I definitely do not get bad start AND early aggression every time on deity.

Yeah, I'm thinking my luck should change on staring position or aggression soon. I play until its clear I'll be wiped out or 100+ turns to get more experience on the starting moves. Just slightly frustrated with BOTH showing up so often. In blind faith I've even changed a seed or two to see what effect that might have on the setup. So far, nothing I can discern.

Play diplomacy. Send a delegation to them the turn you meet...

I do that whenever possible. For the most part their cities are out of reach of a trade route at the beginning, and often I have nothing to trade when I try to make deals. I did mention my poor civ start locations, right? And I do take advantage of Gil whenever he shows up (once anyway).

Am I understanding this correctly, that you normally play King level and from there jumped to Diety? If so, maybe don't skip the levels inbetween.

Yep, let's just say it looks so easy to do and its time to try. Been playing since Civ III and am only now feeling capable of attacking deity games. So, a challenge but one I think I'm ready for.

High sea level = less land = more potential for border conflicts. Why did you choose that setting?

Seemed like a nice map variation at the time. Probably 'cause I kept getting seafearing civs to play (Dido, Harald, etc) so adding more sea would help my civ. Maybe not the best idea in retrospect. Am going to go back to default map settings and try more.

Overall I'm not feeling too bad about where I am, just hitting a rough patch on most of my starting turns. Once I can get those issues sorted out I feel good about my chances although it may take dozens of games to get more successful.

 

[agonistes]

Pursue diplomacy, prepare for war.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Diplo advice already here, but you can also hold the rushes. 2 cities --> position warriors to limit # units that can attack them on defensive terrain on AI approach point. Upgrade slingers to archers. Swap out warriors for healing as they take damage. Even with deity combat bonuses they get worn down/start losing to your promotions.

 

[ezzlar]

Playing small/duel maps are really challenging. In one game my capital was turning into rebellion due to all close enemy cities. I hadn´t even time to build a settler before almost all space was unbuildable.

 

[bengalryan9]

Truthfully, I think sometimes there's just not much you can do. I've seen AI denounce 1 turn after meeting them, and that's after sending a delegation. Some of those leader agendas are legit impossible to please that early in the game. In my experience it's not unusual for the AI to declare war before I've even researched trade so that's not all that useful either. How some of you guys are getting out a trader, AND a settler, AND an army to defend yourself before the AI comes knocking I have no idea. Admittedly, I put an extra 1-2 civs on the maps when I play so they are a bit more crowded, though.

I think it's too much sometimes, though, I really do. The AI on deity already gets so many advantages to start as it is - extra cities, increased combat strength - and they're pretty much guaranteed to out-science and out-culture you that early giving them even more of a leg up. I'm not sure what you're supposed to do when an AI sends 4-6 warriors at you <20 turns in, and it's even worse if the terrain hinders your defense or if they have ancient era UUs ("oh hi, Monty!"). All the while you're watching them like a hawk and preparing for the inevitable attack, you're likely to have barb camps spawning in the opposite direction with scouts that you have no chance of catching. If you've got two neighbors, prepare to be declared on twice! Not fun.

It puts me in a weird spot, because I can win on deity pretty consistently *if* I can survive that initial attack, so I'm not interested in lowering the difficulty. What it tends to lead to is that I either a) restart a few times until I get a survivable start or b) keep reloading until I find the mystical combination of moves that *might* help me survive. It makes a lot of my games feel very "same-y"... usually a game where I have one neighbor nearby and the coast to my back. Every time I try something different from that norm (like a land-locked start) it often ends in a re-start or game over.

I wish leader personality had more to do it. I can understand someone like Shaka or Monty coming after me, but when Wilhelmina or John Curtin are out for blood it seems a little silly to me. Would be nice if you could actually adapt your starting build order to the neighbors you meet, but unless it's Canada (who can't surprise war on you) it doesn't seem to matter on deity.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know. I know there are tons of players here that are way better than I am.

 

[Arent11]

So my question is, is there something I can tweak in my strategy to minimize the risk of other civs declaring against me so early in the game?

If you play Australia, you get 100% production bonus

 

[Bangau]

Admittedly, I put an extra 1-2 civs on the maps when I play so they are a bit more crowded, though.

This makes a big difference. The more AI are near you and the closer they are to you, the more likely that you'll get DOWed. I've tried a crowded Terra map as a challenge and failed the first few tries. If there are two (or three) AI coming for you before turn 20 or even 30 you're done for. It's also about knowing if and when they are coming for you, and if they do how to fight them of. I've fought battles with two warriors and a slinger against armies two/three times that and still won. The AI really doesn't use the terrain to their advantage and as a player you can. Early game wars are often quite interesting, just like a little chess mini-game within a game. Gwent anyone? ;-)

 

[Casualty of war]

If your military is less than half the strength of your neighbor's, you look like a tempting target. The AI doesn't like to DOW until they have their units in striking position so an interposing Scout or even Builder can sometimes mess with their plans. Meeting your neighbors with a Scout or Builder is more likely to result in a positive reaction than if your military unit shows up on their doorstep. Don't give your capital's location away to someone who's a concern.

If your initial Settler spawns in a bad spot, investing a few Turns to improve your situation is always worth it.

And YouTubers throw out games that go kitty-wumpus, unless they go entertainingly haywire.

 

[bengalryan9]

This makes a big difference. The more AI are near you and the closer they are to you, the more likely that you'll get DOWed. I've tried a crowded Terra map as a challenge and failed the first few tries. If there are two (or three) AI coming for you before turn 20 or even 30 you're done for. It's also about knowing if and when they are coming for you, and if they do how to fight them of. I've fought battles with two warriors and a slinger against armies two/three times that and still won. The AI really doesn't use the terrain to their advantage and as a player you can. Early game wars are often quite interesting, just like a little chess mini-game within a game. Gwent anyone? ;-)

Yeah, I know it's partially of my own design. The default map size-to-player ratio just seems too spacious to me. If the map generator did a better job of spreading out the starting points more evenly, I think my setup would be perfect for me.

 

[Mahi]

Deity in most civ iterations has always been about exploiting the game mechanics in order to beat the game. Honestly the most enjoyable early game is on king level because it feels more like that's how the game is supposed to be played in terms of diplomacy.
If you haven't played on emperor level I would start there. I think you'll find that the start on emperor is quite different from king level due to the extra settler and added early aggression from the AI.
YouTube videos make deity early starts look ridiculously easy compared to my experience on deity as well.

 

[Bangau]

Meeting your neighbors with a Scout or Builder is more likely to result in a positive reaction than if your military unit shows up on their doorstep.

I think Victoria checked this and found it to be incorrect. It doesn't matter presumably with what unit you meet them. Or is my memory failing me here, @Victoria?

 

[Victoria]

I think Victoria checked this and found it to be incorrect. It doesn't matter presumably with what unit you meet them. Or is my memory failing me here, @Victoria?

It does not matter which but a scout counts as a military unit and having 2 of them against there border will force a promise which starts as a negative diplomatic effect but turns into a little positive one after about 40 turns for 20 turns for keeping your promise.
The exact formula for triggering I am unsure of but 2 directly against will, 1 against and 2 1 tile away will... in your own borders lessens their effect. Because this varies I suspect the civs mood is taken into account but without the dll or 20 hours of testing....

 

[Casualty of war]

Thanks, V. I think I'm misremembering a Civ_trader playthrough where he blew through the game with a peaceful Culture-powered Scientific Victory by avoiding any border encroachment. So a Scout is like half an aggressive move? Neat.

My "scouts" are usually 1 charge Monumentality Builders and no one minds those traipsing about their territory.

 

[LFRANK]

Okay, based on the advice givern here I made two changes in my next few games and things have turned slightly better. The changes were:

1. Changed map size from Small to Standard – did this to hopefully free some space between my civ and the next nearest one.
2. Dropped down to Emperor level – did this to reduce some of the AIs advantages in the early game and allow me to get a better foothold

My first game didn't start any better, had both Kongo and Alexander within sight of my civ (Teddy) but had another poor starting position that didn't give me much production at all. Both civs were kind enough to wait until I was in their way for expansion before declaring DOW on me. Two civs attacking and little production made it useless to continue.

Next game things started to change. Amanitore had some space to work but again, too many resource poor desert tiles to grow as quickly as I wanted. Hd nothing to trade to build relationships and while she gamely played on the slow drain began and I was forced to abandon that game.

Third game with Jayavarman was looking good, production was okay, but Egypt had it in for me from the start and kept distracting me away building infrastructure. The other civs watched our constant battles and denounced me for being aggressive even though I didn't start the conflicts. But then the Aztecs showed up as a runaway civ having 4 times my combat strength and just began to roll over me. Wasn't too annoyed by that as the rest of the game had gone fairly well with only some minor headaches.

BTW: Anyone else see all the negative logic in some of the enemy civ comments. I'll be growing my gold by 75 each turn and have a 500+ surplus, yet be insulted due to my poor financial acumen! Others also come up although I can't remember the precise wording. It's like a game evaluates opposite to what the truth is. Very annoying.

Right now I'm in the middle of a game with Catherine. Was a slow start but when Indonesia DOWed me I was able to drive them back and then capture all three of their cities, wiping them from the game. Brazil decided to get into the fun and I drove them away while capturing two of their cities. After that I got a reprieve, built some infrastructure and now the Aztecs are massing on my border with twice my combat strength. They've only got a couple of narrow valleys to come through so I think I can hold them off fairly easily.

Have not been able to employ more diplomatic gestures so far other than immediate gold offerings but I'm still hopeful.

Now, let's see how this game ends.

 

[Sykes179]

Don't get hung up on You Tubers posting their best games. Who knows how many shockers they played that they're not showing you. I've tried diplomacy and get a surprise DoW when the AI is very positively inclined towards me. I've stopped accepting those early delegations. Build a few units early whilst expanding and building (I know, all at the same time!) and hope you can Ropey Dope the AI and then counter attack.

 

[LFRANK]

Update: Been doing reasonably well on Emperor level, winning the last 2 games of 5. Dislike the coming from behind aspect of the game but I suppose I'll get used to it. Playing China now and holding my own against Poland and Spain so far. We'll see how it goes from here.