Democracy and Republic

[Fayadi]

Both Democracy and Republic has the same ability of producing extra commerce in a square that is producing at least one.The difference between them is that Democracy has less waste and corruption and democracy produce more shields.
So my question is whether Democracy necessarily produces more gold and science if not for the less corruption?

 

[alexman]

Well, Democracy doesn't actually produce more shields, it has faster workers (the guys that improve your terrain). But the reduction in corruption and waste are more than enough to make a difference in your empire's productivity.

The catch is that Democracy can't deal with any sort of sustained war effort because of unhappiness.

 

[Dinorius R.]

...unless some other civ declares the war on you, then I think your population rallies behind you and war weariness is not so much an issue. Also, getting the Universal Suffrage wonder makes Democracy and limited wars a viable thing. Besides, if you really need to engage in war a bit longer, you can always dip back to Monarchy for a while, the money and advances you make in Democracy can carry you through for some time.

 

[MrBiggBoy]

Originally posted by Dinorius R.
...unless some other civ declares the war on you, then I think your population rallies behind you and war weariness is not so much an issue. Also, getting the Universal Suffrage wonder makes Democracy and limited wars a viable thing. Besides, if you really need to engage in war a bit longer, you can always dip back to Monarchy for a while, the money and advances you make in Democracy can carry you through for some time.

Personally, I use Republic for wars. If the enemy declares war on you, you have universal suffrage, and you have police stations in all important cities, your're unstoppable.

HOW TO GET ENEMY TO DECLARE WAR ON YOU:

1. Go into negotions, demand all gold, cities, luxuries, strategic resources, and military alliance vs his best friend.

2. WHen he's furious, put guys on the edge of the territory.

3. ATTEMPT to plant tons of spies in his civ (half the time it never works)

4. If it doesn't work- he'll most likely declare war.

5. If it does, use sabotage production on immediate. Use all other diplo except investigate city and steal tech.


KILL HIM FOR HIS INSOLENCE!!!!!!!

 

[Moonsinger]

I'm always going with Democracy. Less waste means more money. I use to lure the AI into declaring war, but that just cost too much golds and trouble. Nowadays, If I want war, I just go ahead and declared it myself. For example, if I declare war against one civ and that civ has a mutual protection pact with another civ. That other civ will also declare war against me. So, I declare one, and they declare one ... in the end it balance out nicely. Even if I'm the only one starting the war, it's no problem at all. If you need a living proof, take a look at the US government. It has the most successful democratic government on earth and look at how many war it has been involved lately.

 

[Midnight Rider]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
I'm always going with Democracy. Less waste means more money. I use to lure the AI into declaring war, but that just cost too much golds and trouble. Nowadays, If I want war, I just go ahead and declared it myself. For example, if I declare war against one civ and that civ has a mutual protection pact with another civ. That other civ will also declare war against me. So, I declare one, and they declare one ... in the end it balance out nicely. Even if I'm the only one starting the war, it's no problem at all. If you need a living proof, take a look at the US government. It has the most successful democratic government on earth and look at how many war it has been involved lately.

It makes me SICK how war weary my people get so damn quickly. Every city has a cathedral, temple, colleseum, library, market, bank, university, and research lab. Recycling Centers, Solar Plants. One big happy socialist pinko environmentalist whacko nation. They have furs, silks, gold, horses, spices, gems, incense, rubber, EVERY POSSIBLE RESOURCE *HUMANLY* IMAGINEABLE!!! And they STILL riot about four turns after a war has started. I have J.S. Bach's Cathedral and the Sistine Chapel. I've even had the (now obsolete) Hanging Gardens and the Colossus. I'm the most culturally important civ in the universe, and my people are a bunch of whining pukes...

Makes me wanna

 

[Dinorius R.]

Yeah, we should have the option of occasionally taking one of our own people and shooting them in public as an example and warning to the rest of their whining ilk. You'd soon find war weariness tapers off to a mild case of civil disobedience (or would it just get worse? - I'm thinking of what happened at Kent State university way back in the Vietnam era).

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Midnight Rider
It makes me SICK how war weary my people get so damn quickly. Every city has a cathedral, temple, colleseum, library, market, bank, university, and research lab. Recycling Centers, Solar Plants. One big happy socialist pinko environmentalist whacko nation. They have furs, silks, gold, horses, spices, gems, incense, rubber, EVERY POSSIBLE RESOURCE *HUMANLY* IMAGINEABLE!!! And they STILL riot about four turns after a war has started. I have J.S. Bach's Cathedral and the Sistine Chapel. I've even had the (now obsolete) Hanging Gardens and the Colossus. I'm the most culturally important civ in the universe, and my people are a bunch of whining pukes...

Makes me wanna

That seem to be the case for a mix civ. I'm currently at war for over 60 turns with the English and my people are still quite happy. Well not all of my people are happy. It goes like this:

All of my size 20+ cities where all citizens are Egyptians (I'm playing Egypt), people are very happy because I'm winning the war. All my other cities where all citizens are made up of civs that I completely destroyed are also happy (although they are not quite happy as Egyptians). All cities where some citizens are made up of the people that I'm at war with are extremely unhappy! So I have no choice but to cut off their food suply and let them die of starvation. Sure a city of size 20 will eventually reduce to a size 1 within 20 turns or so. That's ok. I can rebuild them after I win the war. From now on, unless I'm able to wipe out the entire civ within 20 turns or less, I will raze all cities and rebuild them from scratch; that's the only sure way to avoid unhappiness down the line.

PS: I have zero cathedral, temple, colleseum, library, university, or research lab in my empire. The only thing I have is a market selling 8 luxuries, a courthouse, and a police station in most of my cities. If you like, I can post a savegame.

 

[MrBiggBoy]

yes, post please

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dinorius R.
Yeah, we should have the option of occasionally taking one of our own people and shooting them in public as an example and warning to the rest of their whining ilk.

I think you are referring to the government type, Despotism.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Moonsinger

That seem to be the case for a mix civ. I'm currently at war for From now on, unless I'm able to wipe out the entire civ within 20 turns or less, I will raze all cities and rebuild them from scratch; that's the only sure way to avoid unhappiness down the line.

PS: I have zero cathedral, temple, colleseum, library, university, or research lab in my empire. The only thing I have is a market selling 8 luxuries, a courthouse, and a police station in most of my cities. If you like, I can post a savegame.

You won't build the people temples or cathedrals, only police stations. Even that is not enough suffering, now you plan on wiping out entire cities. I suppose that's one way to build a civilization.

 

[Crimson Sunrise]

I like the Ruthless Republic style of play. The Democracy social model turns me off because (according to the manual) it seems to represent the six-hundred-parties type of democracy which is weak and useless.

 

[Trinity]

Democracy in this game strikes me as a pain in the patootie.

Now about the war weariness. Take a look here in the states. People are already growing weary of the "war on terror" even though we were attacked! We want a video game war like the Gulf War. We don't want a long drawn out conflict.

The questioning of those in power comes into play after 90 days. This is war weariness. It comes from the rights guaranteed in the Constitution such as freedom of the press. I wouldn't have it any other way.

If you're going to go down a military path in Civ III, go Communism instead. Also your espionage missions seem to have better success.

Intelligence Agency in Communism: You are under constant surveillance. Every move will be monitored.

Intelligence Agency in Democracy: Doughnuts and coffee are in the conference room.

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
If you need a living proof, take a look at the US government. It has the most successful democratic government on earth and look at how many war it has been involved lately.

Your calling that a successful Democracy? When less then 50% Vote in the elections?

Anyway, I usually have Monarchy when in war (or despotism at times), it helps if you are Religious because you can change rather quickly. Democracy is great when in peace, but I don't like loosing happy people (less score), so I usually don't use it in war. Although you get a Happiness boost for some turns if they declare war on you.

 

[Dinorius R.]

Originally posted by Zachriel


I think you are referring to the government type, Despotism.

Seemingly Zachriel, but no, I was thinking that it would be nice if democratic leaders were allowed an occasional bout of PMT just to make the chattering classes behave themselves. I guess I just want all the advantages of democracy without having to put up with the disadvantages, a hopeless cause I must concede. In real life, governments bend the rules all the time without losing their claim to being democratic.

 

[Myartar]

US is not a democracy, it's a Republic. Democracy, the people have a direct vote in all issues, Republic, you choose others to vote for you. Also, a true Democracy is unattainable due the level of information required of all citizens....

Dealing w/ the game tho, I just had a game where I was the Babylonians and was attacked by the Atzec-Japanese MPP, within a few turns, my citizens were in an uproar even w/ my police stations and Universal Sufferage.

Point: I agree that war, no matter the circumstances, is not possible under Democracy.

 

[Wild Weasel]

What if you are a Militaristic Civ ? In that case, it could be argued that war is an ultimate statement of your cultural identity. In theory, your population could become more and more disgruntled if you were pushed around by other Civs and didn't react militarily.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Myartar
US is not a democracy, it's a Republic. Democracy, the people have a direct vote in all issues, Republic, you choose others to vote for you. Also, a true Democracy is unattainable due the level of information required of all citizens....

It's all semantic, but your use of the word "democracy" to mean majoritarianism or "true democracy" is not the usual meaning of the word. This usage is probably best reserved for philosophy classes as there is no application in the real world. The way the word is generally used means that the U.S. and most countries of the western world are, indeed, democracies. Republic is usually used to refer to societies without universal suffrage, such as the Senate of ancient Rome.

(The right-wing in the U.S. has been pushing the point that the U.S. is a republic, asserting that the power of the government is limited, but in many people's minds it harkens back to the states' rights ideals of segregation and Jim Crow. )

Merriam-Webster
Democracy: government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

BRITANNICA
Democracy: literally, rule by the people (from the Greek demos, “people,” and kratos, “rule”). The term has three basic senses in contemporary usage: (1) a form of government in which the right to make political decisions is exercised directly by the whole body of citizens, acting under procedures of majority rule, usually known as direct democracy; (2) a form of government in which the citizens exercise the same right not in person but through representatives chosen by and responsible to them, known as representative democracy; and (3) a form of government, usually a representative democracy, in which the powers of the majority are exercised within a framework of constitutional restraints designed to guarantee all citizens the enjoyment of certain individual or collective rights, such as freedom of speech and religion, known as liberal, or constitutional, democracy.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dinorius R.


Seemingly Zachriel, but no, I was thinking that it would be nice if democratic leaders were allowed an occasional bout of PMT just to make the chattering classes behave themselves. I guess I just want all the advantages of democracy without having to put up with the disadvantages, a hopeless cause I must concede. In real life, governments bend the rules all the time without losing their claim to being democratic.

Ah yes, I get it. Kent State, Nixon, Watergate, list of Jewish contributors to the opposition party, killing of Rev. King. Yes, I get it. Didn't help with war weariness, though.

Generally, in a democracy, killing peaceful citizen protesters or assassinating political leaders is considered a crime. Go figure!

 

[LouisJared]

Quick question.
If you have the universal sufferage wonder built then does bulding police stations make any extra difference to war weariness?? It says in the civpedia that both "Reduce war weariness" but by how much and are the effects of the universal sufferage cumulative with police stations. Whenever I've built both it doesn't seem to make any real difference so now I don't bother! Does anyone know the exact answer or got any ideas?? Thanks