Democracy not working out

[WildPony]

It's been a long while since I've had the opportunity to sit down and play some CivII, and I was by no means an expert even back when I used to play regularly.

So it's perhaps not too surprising that I don't understand what's being said in the quoted sentence.

Could someone explain? I love learning new tricks

Sure. Basically the game was designed in such a way that a settler works full speed the first turn commanded, then half speed each turn thereafter. If you re-command anew each turn, you avoid the penalty. This is accomplished by clicking the command and un-clicking it each turn.

The lesser known fact is that the settler stores the work, not the land or the project. You can therefore pre-charge a settler as he is moving towards your desired project... and this pre-charging can be accomplished with any type of work... ie: you can command "i" on your way to a mining project and be completing a portion of the eventual mine. One-turn forts in hostile territory become a great tactical application .

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Trade caravans are *unbearably slow*. It may take centuries for a caravan to reach its destination, and sometimes they are lost due to attack, or the demands of the target city change. Is there any way to mitigate this?

Changes in demand are quite annoying. The best way to avoid it (asside from speedy delivery) is to send commodities that are in general demand. Due to a bug, Dye is typically demanded in many cities and is therefore an exellent commodity to ship out over long distances. I find that silk is usually in good demand as well. Copper and silver are probably next on the list. You'll want to avoid shipping out commodities like salt, hides and beads. To a large extent trading is something that you just pick up with practice and is never going to be perfect.

Avoid attack by staying at peace throughout the early game as much as possible. This may mean spineless appeasement in certain cases. Try delivering to coastal cities, so that you don't innitiate contact and receive a threat and demand. Also, if you want to get to an inland city, try delivering a caravan to a coastal city before making landfall, because this will often improve the attitude of the civ receiving the delivery.

The centuries delayed caravan delivery is a fact of life. The first caravans you produce for trade will probably be the most long-term investments that you will make in the game. Typically, I'll send my caravans to the most distant peninsula on foot and wait for the foreign trade ship to come and get them from there. "Domestic shipping" should be considered before building roads, because it costs far less and is of comperable speed when there is little traffic. Don't be affraid to build a ship just to move 2 caravans; the return will be worth it and you will eventually have the ship return to be used again. Eventually roads will become more practical, as they handle unlimited traffic and are more convenient.

 

[ummmm........]

Sure. Basically the game was designed in such a way that a settler works full speed the first turn commanded, then half speed each turn thereafter. If you re-command anew each turn, you avoid the penalty. This is accomplished by clicking the command and un-clicking it each turn.

The lesser known fact is that the settler stores the work, not the land or the project. You can therefore pre-charge a settler as he is moving towards your desired project... and this pre-charging can be accomplished with any type of work... ie: you can command "i" on your way to a mining project and be completing a portion of the eventual mine. One-turn forts in hostile territory become a great tactical application .

Okay, I knew the bit about stored work. But I thought if you interrupted a settler every turn like that he would never finish. Live and learn

 

[WildPony]

Okay, I knew the bit about stored work. But I thought if you interrupted a settler every turn like that he would never finish. Live and learn

i once thought the same but then i entered into the light

 

[Terrapin]

Don't be affraid to build a ship just to move 2 caravans; the return will be worth it and you will eventually have the ship return to be used again. Eventually roads will become more practical, as they handle unlimited traffic and are more convenient.

I have a little trouble with that last bit. I often send two SSC 'vans out on a Trireme early in the game, as soon as I can locate a potential trade partner, which makes its slow and winding way to demanding cities. As your post implies, demand often changes and I have to change destinations en route. Usually, when this first trade ship arrives it simply is not worth the time and (usually in Republic) shield support for that vessel to return home. At that point, I just disband the trireme. Your essential point that it is worthwhile to build a ship just to make one early (hopefully pre-Seafaring) foreign delivery is still right on. Two relatively little trades (100+, with luck) are well worth the effort of two 'vans and a trireme, even if the ship is immediately disbanded.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Well, as it happens, I don't typically send my earliest caravans halfway across the world, making the return trip well within 20 turns (the shields recovered by disbanding the trireme, which is the worst case scenario once you have it back). As a matter of fact, I usually engage in little or no pre-navigation trade, because the first wonder races can get quite tight and because I usually aim to have Mike's B.C., as I speed from Trade to Monotheism largely through tech trading. Mike's allows the establishment of Republic, which I typically like to have before doing lots of trading. A lot of this general strategy can be atributed to the fact that lots of early commodities don't have decent demand cities, so the caravans are best put into Mike's.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Sure. Basically the game was designed in such a way that a settler works full speed the first turn commanded, then half speed each turn thereafter. If you re-command anew each turn, you avoid the penalty. This is accomplished by clicking the command and un-clicking it each turn.

This doesn't work in single player. I tried in both classic and MGE single player. It did work in multy-player.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Same for me...I tried it last week and it didn't work for me too. As you mentioned it should be only in multiplayer.....

 

[WildPony]

This doesn't work in single player. I tried in both classic and MGE single player. It did work in multy-player.

I'll be darned.. so in MGE single mode i'm wasting my efforts.

Yet another good find guys .

 

[Russia4Life]

Lots of good advice here, but the most important point has been missed. In CivII, you must expand or die! You cannot co-exist in peace with the AIs. Eventually, as you become more and more powerful, they will turn on you, especially in MPG, so, you need to acquire AI cities at every opportunity. Early on, this may mean by capturing them, than, as your democracy takes off, buy them! Use dips/spies to buy everything in sight! This will provide you with none units to garrison your cities (note: I consider a none unit too valuable to waste in an offensive mode), and will make the AI cities your cities. Yes, you will have to pay double to avoid an incident, but its worth it. As long as your trading, you should have plenty of gold to buy cities. Remember, you cannot live in peace with an AI for long, so your long-range goal is to reduce all the AIs to one pet city while you build and launch your spaceship. Keep those vans moving and you will maintain your tech per turn as well as having plenty of coins. The best defense is a good offense and a spy with a few bags of coins is much more dangerous than several vet cav units.

Keep your reputation spotless, and, after an AI has sneak-attacked you 2 or 3 times, your senate will support further "peacekeeping activities" against that AI. Done properly, the only cities you should have to attack in a democracy are the AI capitals.

Regarding the OEDO trick, remember, you can switch govs as many times in one turn as you like, so, revolt, pick a fighting gov, Monarchy, Commie, or Fundy, blast the AI target cities, than, on the same turn, switch your gov back to Democracy.

From your post, it looks like you are on the right path, you are just not expanding enough, oh, and don't choke your cities with a bunch of defensive units in democracy. You only need 1 and if you don't have a none unit available, you can use a van or dip/spy in a pinch. And with a lot of cities, if your really must go on the attack, each city can provide one attack unit without choking it or causing uncontrollable unhappiness. Especially with the right wonders...!

Hello, I am new to this site, read this thread and felt I had to reply.

This idea sounds all fine and dandy on paper but when you run into an aggressive AI that is in a democracy all your money is useless since you cannot bribe them. what then hope you can rush build enough units before they capture a city or 2? Leave your manhood in the trash and bribe them for peace?
I always keep defensive units in all my cities not just for aggressive AI but also because I play with hardest level of barbarian activity.

PS. What does OEDO mean

 

[BaconLad]

What does OEDO mean

The term "OEDO" comes from the discovery of what turn your revolutions kick in.
I'm not sure but I think the person that discovered OEDO years was called Oedo?
I think every 4th year is an "OEDO year" so, lets supose you click on revolution in an OEDO year, you should change goverenment type straight away with no turns of anarchy.
If you were to click on revolution 2 turns before an OEDO year, you would suffer 2 turns of anarchy before the government type change, and so on... (does that make sense?)

I may be wrong, but it's something along those lines...

 

[Magic_gorter]

Welcome Russia4life.....

What Ace ment will only works if you start expanding right from the start. I don't know how good you are with this game but the players who can deal with Deity are normally way ahead of the AI. Just try to prefent as long as possible that the ai gets democracy. Then you still can bribe theire units and cities. If they go to Democracy and you did expand from the beginning you have much more cities then the AI. In combination with a good trade game you have cash plenty to buy yourself an army from scratch. It is not neccesary to keep defence in all you're cities... the cities on the outside of youre empire are the only place where barbarian activity could be seen.

Oedo years are the years you can change government without going into anarchy. It's every fourth turn. There are some lists with the exact date for every level.

I hope all youre questions are answered and if not please ask. There is most of the time somebody who will help.

 

[BaconLad]

Hello, I am new to this site, read this thread and felt I had to reply.

This idea sounds all fine and dandy on paper but when you run into an aggressive AI that is in a democracy all your money is useless since you cannot bribe them. what then hope you can rush build enough units before they capture a city or 2? Leave your manhood in the trash and bribe them for peace?
I always keep defensive units in all my cities not just for aggressive AI but also because I play with hardest level of barbarian activity.

You should be striving to never let the AI get to the point where there a large agressive democracy.
In my games, by the time A.D comes along almost all the AI tribes are under my thumb.

 

[Russia4Life]

I play large land maps usually Europe on diety. I find that the AI seem to do better there with all the land to expand on. it is hard to contain all the civs on such a large continent with very few chokes plus random barbarian ships and spawns. Perhaps I am not as good as you guys are but I do not see how I could possibly contain fast expanding civs like the Babylonians or Russians on that mp without completely ruining my reputation and making the middle-late game impossible for diplomacy I have no problems pulling out a win, sometimes the comp with launch a crappy spaceship before me, and I won't be able to beat them to alpha centauri, in which case I make a mad dash for their capitol and hope for the best.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I don't have much experience playing on the Europe map, and none that is in any way recent. On a regular map, the limits of continents will provide a considerable obstacle to extreme AI expansion. It is entirely possible, however, to out-expand the AI. In the early game, build settlers only (and warriors for martial law, if you are at deity) and just claim land constantly. Start building caravans in cities that are too far from the frontier to effectively get settlers to unclaimed land. Only defend cities under known threat, such as border cities to other civs (and possibly cities with important wonders). Your other cities will be "defended" by the sheer number of cities that you have; you may lose one or two cities, but if you were to defend all your cities, you would have far less of them, because of the resources diverted from their construction to defenses that will probably never be needed.

If/when you lose a city to a surprise attack by a foreign civ, you now have an effective place to direct your defense resources. You can rush units that can take back the city, or, build a diplomat to bribe back the city at half price. Since expansionism results in small cities, especially on the frontier, the bribing cost will be minimal.

Eventually, you start building up the cities in your interior; I typically wait until explosives before starting any major "upward" growth.

This idea sounds all fine and dandy on paper but when you run into an aggressive AI that is in a democracy all your money is useless since you cannot bribe them. what then hope you can rush build enough units before they capture a city or 2? Leave your manhood in the trash and bribe them for peace?
I always keep defensive units in all my cities not just for aggressive AI but also because I play with hardest level of barbarian activity.

Spineless appeasement can yield good results if used properly. As a general rule, the earlier in the game, the more likely I am to appease. This is for a couple of reasons. Early in the game, the computer usually demands techs (I don't pay gold, unless the amount demanded is both moderate and I have a specific reason to want peace; such as their having a tech that I want to trade for) and a tech or two can yield a long term peace or alliance, and the ever-important opportunity to trade techs and the ability to trade maps periodically. As the game moves on, I need less cooperation from the computers to be successful, so I don't give in to their demands. Also, in the late game, war is generally desired anyway, so appeasement is pointless.

Barbarians are hardly a reason to defend cities; you can bribe them away or bribe any captured cities back. Besides, on the higher levels, the barbs get attack bonuses anyway, limiting the effectiveness of defences.

The next game you play, try keeping track of how many of the defensive units you produce are used, and compare that to the total number you produce. Then compare the expense of producing all those units to the expense you would have incured to deal with the problems that did happen if you had not built so many units. You will probably find that so many units cost you more to build and support than the expense of dealing with the odd crisis.

 

[Russia4Life]

Spineless appeasement can yield good results if used properly. As a general rule, the earlier in the game, the more likely I am to appease. This is for a couple of reasons. Early in the game, the computer usually demands techs (I don't pay gold, unless the amount demanded is both moderate and I have a specific reason to want peace; such as their having a tech that I want to trade for) and a tech or two can yield a long term peace or alliance, and the ever-important opportunity to trade techs and the ability to trade maps periodically. As the game moves on, I need less cooperation from the computers to be successful, so I don't give in to their demands. Also, in the late game, war is generally desired anyway, so appeasement is pointless.

Barbarians are hardly a reason to defend cities; you can bribe them away or bribe any captured cities back. Besides, on the higher levels, the barbs get attack bonuses anyway, limiting the effectiveness of defences.

The next game you play, try keeping track of how many of the defensive units you produce are used, and compare that to the total number you produce. Then compare the expense of producing all those units to the expense you would have incured to deal with the problems that did happen if you had not built so many units. You will probably find that so many units cost you more to build and support than the expense of dealing with the odd crisis.

Good points I guess, I just always made it a goal to never lose a single city, I also like to go offensive early every now and again, so I always figured keeping units to be important. Perhaps you can tell me what you think of my building order, I almost always use it except for if I am building a wonder or something I may alter it a little.

Capital - 2nd city - 3rd city
1st unit warrior - for exploring
2nd unit warrior for martial law
3rd unit settler
4th unit settler(if enough food) or another warrior/phalanx
Then I alternate between settler phalanx until I have 3 units for martial
I then alternate settler temple settler wonder (pyramids colossus or hanging gardens) I am usually able to get all 3, then I go back to making settlers

I use max science on tax for the whole beginning of the game.

For each city after the first 3 I just alternate settler/phalanx until i have 3 units for martial then alternate settlers around construction of a temple, If one is able to get good production say I have a whale or two I might consider a wonder in it Marco Polo's or Oracle if Marco's was built already. If I do not get either of those oh well no major loss IMO.

I then tech to monotheism for Michelangelo's Chapel, as soon as that's built I can switch to republic no problem, this is when I usually fly past the AI in tech. I now change my taxes to 20% luxury and the minimum tax to cover upkeep I may also disband a few units if I have cities that aren't producing alot of shields. As soon as I have Democracy I switch to that. I will try to get Issac's and Copernicus in the same city as the Colossus through either buying it or caravans. I also make a major effort to get Leonardo's workshop. The free upgrades of all my phalaxes/warrior to higher units and to ultimately rifleman later in the game is really good IMO. Only other wonders I worry about at this time is J.S. Bach's witch really pwns with Democracy, and Adam Smiths which covers the costs of all my temples marketplaces and libraries, Which I usualy have in all my cities.

My next goal is explosives then railroads, after which I build Darwin's Voyage and always pick industrialization and communism as the 2 free techs. I have absolutely no problems with defense or happiness doing this untill railroad and communism when I lose hanging gardens and cathedrals are less effective. At that time I either have to build Colosseums or raise my lux to 30% until I have colloseums in my larger cities. I also tend to make courthouses around now. I then focus on building women's sufferage and united nations. This is when I tend to go out looking for trouble with nearby AI's get them to declare war each other through diplomacy or get an alliance with one of em.

What I do after this varies alot depending on many factors, but most of the time I stay with democracy and fight it out or build a space ship. other times I may tech to robotics and go fundamentalism and have howitzer and tanks everywhere.

I also learned 2 things today reading the forum which I didn't know before that I might incorporate into future games We love the president day giving you a free population every turn (I always wondered how some of my cities would fly from size 12 to 27 or so in so few turns). The other is how much trade routes are worth. I usualy only did 3 for each city thinking that any after were pretty much useless.

 

[Magic_gorter]

It is not necessary to build three units for martial law. One or two should be enough. And as soon as you have republic/democracy those units give no more martial law and they only cost shields. So instead of building that much warrior or phalanxes you could build settlers to grow fast.

It's not bad if you're cities are not that big in the beginning but the minimum should be size three (because we love the day starts with size three cities). So staying at size 3 or 4 is ideal in the beginning until Republic is possible.

Trying to get Marco Polo as one of youre first wonders can help you a lot too. When using Marco Polo correct you can get a lot of techs from the AI for free.

Perhaps the early conquest guide and/or early landing guide in the great library on the apolyton site can help you also with improving youre game...it did mine at least and I can now win easily at deity level...

 

[Russia4Life]

I never really found marco polos that helpful I usually have contact with most players through exploration before I get the ability to build it anyways. with the amount of units I usually have I can get alot of exploring done.

I suppose playing with so few units it would be more helpful.

1 quick question I read it on the forum but I can't seem to find it again, something about increasing barbarian and difficulty levels past the max levels, can you by chance link me to it if you know where it is or tell me what to edit in the text file to allow those options. Would be interesting to try those out.


Never mind on the link I found the same information looking elsewhere on the forum.
Just played a game on deity +5 (didn't last very long) my level 1 city with 3 units and a temple was still in disorder LOL, might have to scale back a little to maybe +1 or +2

 

[Magic_gorter]

If you really wants to improve youre game I suggest to build Marco Polo as first or seccond wonder. This means that you can build it between 1500 bc and 1 ad. I build it most of the times around 1000 bc as first wonder. The ai normally have several techs discovered you don't have yet but can get via them. And after a while you can use youre keyciv (normally purple if youre supreme) to keep youre research costs as low as possible. Just try reading the documents I mentioned above and perhaps all will get clear why Marco Polo is a great wonder.

You mentioned the barb wrath difficulty level. I don't know how to do it but there must be others who will know....

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Just played a game on deity +5 (didn't last very long) my level 1 city with 3 units and a temple was still in disorder LOL, might have to scale back a little to maybe +1 or +2

At deity-plus (except, perhaps, early in deity plus 1) luxuries are essential to happiness, because 2 luxuries make a black-hat happy. Most of the "recent" succession games have been played at the deity-plus level, so look there for various strategies on dealing with happiness issues at that level.