Denmark - Completely useless or...?

First of Denmark can allways pillage much more effective then any other civ.
Basicly Denmark can pillage twice as many tiles as any other civ with the same units and same amount of them.

Denmark can declear very early war and get some horsemen to rush straight to the improvements and destroy them all very very quickly with far less risk of losing your units compared to other civs basicly killing them Before turn 100.

Yes other civs can do that to but Denmark do it better.

Sea Invasions Denmark is way superior to other civs.

Denmark is one of the best Civs at Domination, one of the more flexible Domination Civs to, good at both land and water.
 
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On a land map less so since many capitals are not inland, but the ones that are near sea are swarming with ships, as you know being a diety player, and so swimming some catapults through the culture borders, since you have to DOW first, will not necessarily be a one turn thing. My objection here is your claim that attacking with land units from Sea can take a capital in *one* turn, nothing else. Of course it can be done to take a capital from sea with xbows, nothing new there.

Great to hear about the diety challenge! It seemed to die out after diety got nerfed..

I think I see the disconnect here. I'm making assumptions based on the state of Deity play post-fall patch.

Assumption #1)
For best results at Deity domination, you need to get civs to attack each other. By doing this, you achieve multiple things:

* You encounter virtually no resistance when you DoW, or it comes too late to defend the capital.

* You maintain friendly relations with the civs that are at war with them, suffering no diplomatic penalty for city capture

Assumption #2)
On Pangaea, you don't start capturing cities until t90-t110, to avoid heavy diplomatic penalties.

Basically, Deity domination IS nerfed because of diplomatic penalties and the economic changes to make trade routes the main source of income.

So yes, I AM assuming that the AI's coastal city will be relatively unguarded when I DoW. I'm basically counting on that. There might be one or two, but if I time my attack right, I can cap uncontested.

In my Maya game, this backfired on me. Sweden and the Shoshone warred, but Sweden by t90 had won swiftly and handily, capturing a city and making peace ten turns after the DoW, leaving him with the #1 military and #1 production and a GW when I attacked. This is an area where I need to improve for sure.

Anyway, point being, Deity domination IMHO is now a lot more about managing CS relations and pitting AIs against each other than it is brute force war, unless you can win the game so swiftly that it doesn't matter. Tommy's t126 Arabia run is probably a good example. I'm guessing at that speed he could just not worry about relationships. ;)

There have been little deity Domination challenges going on here and there for a while now. Also, the HOF occasionally does a Diety Domination challenge. Join us, it's fun. Sorry if I got testy. :P
 
Maybe they should add something related to maritime trade route?
Give to the cargo ship the ability to defend themselves?
Vikings were raiders and warriors, but also great merchants.
 
Honestly denmark isn't useless at all.
Just consider this: With liberty and pyramids you can heal twice on the same turn and you still have 3 movement points. Also you can do a lot of crazy stuff with catapults and embarking(becomes even more awesome with rocket artillery).
 
Honestly denmark isn't useless at all.
Just consider this: With liberty and pyramids you can heal twice on the same turn and you still have 3 movement points. Also you can do a lot of crazy stuff with catapults and embarking(becomes even more awesome with rocket artillery).

Except that's such an incredibly niche pair of ability, neither of which are remotely necessary to win a war.
 
Denmark is not weak at the moment. With pyramids/liberty they can get 15 gold per turn per worker repairing tiles.

If Firaxis close that exploit they will be a civ specialised for early warfare on water maps. They could really use a more general bonus instead of the ridicoulous ski infantry. I propose to let them build rune stones:

UI Runestone
+2 faith
Can be built at construction, can be built in all terrain types. May not be built in the industrial era and after.
+2 culture after archeology.

New promotion on berzerkers: Song and saga
When the unit dies in battle, choose a runestone and dubble its yield. (This is not cumulative.)
 
They make it much cheaper by eliminating most of the needed units to pillage with. (3/4 less units if you compare horsemen on roads)
 
But if you're actually utilizing that, then you need all those workers, which are arguably harder to get (and definitely harder to defend) than the units themselves.
 
Denmark isn't a useless civ, you can completely cripple your neighbor early game and get a lot of gold in the process, the Berserkers are a nice way to counter river cities. It's like the celtic Pictish Warrior, you make some scouts warriors or whatever you fancy early game, pillage pillage pillage pillage steal workers etc. Plus the embarking UA isn't that bad, it's makes early exploration with land units easier, and saved my settlers so many times,

*sees a land mass*
Looks like a nice place to settle, *disembarks*
Finds 3 barbarian warriors
*embark*
I'm getting the crap out of there!
 
*sees a land mass*
Looks like a nice place to settle, *disembarks*
Finds 3 barbarian warriors
*embark*
I'm getting the crap out of there!

This happened to me few times. You can almost send your settlers unescorted. The UA is also useful to cross isthmus very quickly.
 
This happened to me few times. You can almost send your settlers unescorted. The UA is also useful to cross isthmus very quickly.

I think the new map scripting in BNW has made Denmark more useful. The new Pangaea maps on default settings are a snaky mess. Whether it's XB rush, artillery rush or tanks & planes, there's almost always a choke point that allows only one unit to approach, and usually at least a few points on the Pangaea with a sea or lake near a city you intend to take. Even if you could approach by land, sometimes that approach is forest hills, and being able to move your units into those tiles and fire in the same turn helps in a very noticeable way. (IMHO)

But, more importantly, IMHO, their UU and UA make swordsmen + siege rush more viable than it is for any civ but Persia.

Let's face it, traditional swordsmen + siege rush is inferior to XB rush because of certain key factors:
1) Ranged attacks are inherently superior. With enough units you can kill an enemy force without ever taking damage. They're better than siege because they can move and attack in the same turn. It's better to do less damage and never get hit than to do more damage and die.
2) The promotion path gets you Logistics and Range, which allows ranged units to decimate forces and attack cities from outside city attack range. It may take a while, but Range allows units can take out cities far more powerful than they should be able to, simply because they never take damage.
3) Yes, siege units can eventually do this, but they have limited visibility and need an extra turn to set up. Sometimes you never get that extra turn. Sometimes you only get to attack for one turn before you need to run away. As a result, they suck for barb quests because they need an escort.
4) You get Archery earlier, allowing you to earn these promotions earlier by doing barb quests and whittling down your first opponent's forces in the early game. The slower promotion to Range is the killer for siege.
5) Composite Bows are cheaper to rush-buy than any other unit with the same hammer cost. Ostensibly this was a balance chance to make city defense easier, but they overshot their goal on this IMHO.
6) Machinery is a very convenient and relatively cheap tech path. Physics + Steel requires much more beakers, even if you skip Civil Service. If you don't, it's waaay more beakers.
7) Iron is not a guarantee.

All of these factors have made siege rush inferior to XB rush, and this was NOT by design IMHO. It was a design oversight. A trivial fix to this would be to remove Logistics from the ranged unit promotion list for all but Cho-Ko-Nu, and reduce Cho-Ko-Nu strength slightly. (again) Or, make ranged units weaker in general, but give them a bonus when attacking while garrisoned. But, as things stand, XB rush > siege rush.

Denmark is the exception. Metal Casting is waaay less beaker investment, and berserkers are quite strong. 21 strength melee that early is tremendous. 3 moves + free pillage essentially gives them all the benefits of a horseman, and amphibious is extremely valuable in city attack because of rivers. They can damage a unit from across a river, survive the counter attack and pillage heal 3x the next turn. They can almost take down a city without ranged support, just by brute force.

And, unlike any civ but Persia, Denmark can in certain situations move and attack their siege units in the same turn. But more important than that is how effective berserkers are at being damage shields for siege units, soaking city attack damage. They remove the need to move and attack in the same turn, because they give siege units time to set up while they pillage-heal. Suddenly you have 24 strength (vs cities) ranged units instead of 11. With the level 2 promotion they become 28 strength vs cities. CBs with a level 4 promotion (logistics) are effectively 22 strength vs cities. Catapults are 48 strength at that point if you skip the +50% bonus. Of course, IMHO the optimal pathway is Range for Catapults, but that's beside the point.

Obviously the addition of pillage-healing really helped Denmark. Nobody benefits from it quite as much as berserkers do.

And, regardless of which era you start your war in, the ability to move and attack in one turn with siege is huge. Tanks that can land and move 6+ times in one turn are vicious. Ski Infantry that can land and move 10+ times in one turn, pillaging the whole way, are ridiculous. Rocket Artillery that can land, move 5 times and attack in one turn, are absurd. It doesn't matter whether you're doing a continental invasion or not. Just hop in the water and hop back out.

Bonus: Once you get Astronomy, Xbows with logistics can land, fire, fire and embark each turn. If there are no ranged units nearby, no one can counterattack. A small lake makes a great beachhead.

It all boils down to this: During XB or artillery rush, anything that shaves turns off a victory is extremely valuable because it gives you extra turns before the AI researches a better military tech. Denmark's ability to blow past choke points can and often does shave many turns off a typical Pangaea if used right. This is ultimately why I rate them so highly for conquest. I'd still put Darius higher because Persia, if properly used, can clear a Pangaea *insanely* fast, and I'd put Zulu higher because Impi are just broken. Arabia and the Mongols are unquestionably the best two civs. But Denmark is IMHO a top-ten conquest civ. If Optics wasn't a significant tech detour, I'd rank them higher. And, on any difficulty but Deity, the slower AI tech rate makes Denmark even stronger. The true advantage of XBs eventually becomes a) Logistics, because a horde of XBs can nuke advanced units, and b) Range, because they don't get decimated by advanced era city defenses. This advantage is much less on Immortal or below, where the AI has a smaller military and lower tech rate.

I'll post some example screenshots from a Pangaea Deity run, demonstrating why I love Denmark, when I have time. Unfortunately, my playtime is limited for now... :(
 
such a shame as i realy wanted to like this civ
if there is anny civ that needs a complete over haul its this one. it barley worked to begin with and now after bnw there just, sadly, 1 trick ponies and that trick has been made less impressive due to the xpac.

i like the idears behind the civ in general and i like there uu but they need a major change atm. i always was of the opinion that there zerker units should of become a kind of boat/trimarein when embarked but that still wouldn't be enough
 
Arabia and the Mongols are unquestionably the best two civs.

IMHO,the best two civs for early domination victory are Huns and Egypt.Horse Archer/War Archer are the best two rushing units in early stage as they are cheap,fast and strong.Huns fights better in rough terrains and Egypt in open terrains.Huns has production bonus and sometimes a 10T Battering Ram.Egypt has most early happiness from UB/religion and meanwhile pays little maintance.Domination record(Standard map,deity,normal speed) in CIV( largest Civ forum in China)I remember is 73(Egypt) and 74(Huns).
 
IMHO,the best two civs for early domination victory are Huns and Egypt.Horse Archer/War Archer are the best two rushing units in early stage as they are cheap,fast and strong.Huns fights better in rough terrains and Egypt in open terrains.Huns has production bonus and sometimes a 10T Battering Ram.Egypt has most early happiness from UB/religion and meanwhile pays little maintance.Domination record(Standard map,deity,normal speed) in CIV( largest Civ forum in China)I remember is 73(Egypt) and 74(Huns).

Standard size/speed/number of opponents? BNW? Pangaea I assume? HoF style rules? (IE no reloads, no duplicate civs, no policy saving, etc etc... Verified save games)

Those numbers are pretty hard to believe without verifiably cheat-free save games. Not saying it wasn't done, I'd just want to see proof.

Interesting in any case. You're full of surprising info!
 
Standard size/speed/number of opponents? BNW? Pangaea I assume? HoF style rules? (IE no reloads, no duplicate civs, no policy saving, etc etc... Verified save games)

was in GK,with a few reloads.Unlike CFC,We allow SL(if not too many) in CIV to correct major strategic mistakes.

Early war is harder in BNW for the lack of gold and happiness.But strategy does not change...

Spoiler :
by thwsl
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Hmm - not sure if in latest patch notes but BERSEKERS ARE ENABLED AT METAL CASTING (was deeper in tech tree at STEEL) in the current version of the game ...

this is a pretty significant buff for them
 
Hmm - not sure if in latest patch notes but BERSEKERS ARE ENABLED AT METAL CASTING (was deeper in tech tree at STEEL) in the current version of the game ...

this is a pretty significant buff for them

They are very hard to kill on enemy territory.
Pillage up to 3 times for up to 75 hp healed make them very strong, far stronger then LS in my opinion.
 
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