"Depletion" of resources??

[Foo]

I am a long-time veteran of CivI and CivII, and over the last month have really enjoyed the new challenges of CivIII.

One of those new "features", however is very poorly implemented-that of resource depletion. While the idea is a good one, the way it happens in the game makes no sense at all.

In my latest game as the Germans, I found a nice source of saltpeter in my territory when I researched Gunpowder. I didn't take advantage of the Musketmen immediately, as I was too busy cranking out Knights in my continuing effort to crush the Egyptians.

About 15 turns after the saltpeter first 'appeared', I got a message saying that it had been depleted!! I had built a total of 2 musketmen!!!

Confused, I opened up the Editor (for the first time) and discovered that there is a 1:800 random chance each turn that saltpeter will be "depleted" from one source and "moved" to another location on the world map. This random "depletion" also holds true for all of the other strategic resources like horses, oil etc.

Anyone else think this makes no sense?

 

[History_Buff]

The values are too low. If you want it to go away, set the number higher, or set it to zero.

If oyu feel this is cheating, stock up on gold, then connect saltpeter to your cities, then upgrade all your pikemen.

 

[Jimcat]

Some saltpeter deposits (or iron, or coal, or whatever) are bigger than others. The world is littered with depleted mines.

The problem I have with this is that you don't know, when you discover a resource, how big the deposit is (i.e. how long it will last). Since the disappearance of resources is random, I see no solution to this under the current game rules.

What would be more realistic, albeit requiring more programming, would be to determine the approximate size of resource deposits when they are discovered. The icon could show, let's say, one, two, or three piles of saltpeter or lumps of coal, depending on whether it's a small, average, or major deposit. Each resource deposit would then have a random chance of running out after X number of turns, X being larger if the deposit is larger.

Maybe I should copy this to the suggestions thread.

 

[History_Buff]

Excellent idea, perhaps even new coal or iron resources likely to spring up in nearby areas to represent the right conditions O so long ago.

 

[AugustoD]

I think the idea of depleted resources is nice, but in the game it is to much for me..., as Foo said i had suffer that problem to much for my mental santiy :crazyeyes so i am searching new values... change all to 0 is close to cheat... so any suggestion for new values are welcome

 

[BigBirdZ28]

I bet you dont think it's so bad when you discover a new source.

 

[vulture]

Discovering a new source is generaly a bore for me. If I didn't have any it is good but when I find I don't have a resource that I need it is usealy time to gear up the army and go take it from my neighbors.

Having multiples only means you can trade one away or that you have a backup when one mysteriously disapears.

 

[Sodak]

I like this feature of the game. In one game, I lost my saltpeter the turn after I built the road to it. O well, go kill the neighbors to get some more!

It will not deplete if you don't build a road on it. Save the extra resources you have in case the others run out. It seems like a good system in the game - civs all have unequal resources, you must strategize and fight for what you want to have!

 

[Ironikinit]

The idea for giving the player an idea of how long the deposit will last is a pretty good one. I'd like to see how that would work out. However, resource depletion is an important part of the game, and a big motivator to start wars. I know some players don't really need a reason to start a war, but sometimes I really do or I'll just coast along. Really spices things up.

It also makes for a strategic consideration, in that I have to estimate how many new units to upgrade or build while I still have the resources, because they could disappear at any time.

 

[enelrad]

I have found that you can build any unit that is in the build queue even after the resource depletes.

I think I read it here somewhere and I used it to good advantage when I had to trade for oil. My queue kept me going until I got my own source - from using all those wonderful units that oil gives you. the yankees weren't using it anyway.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Foo
I am a long-time veteran of CivI and CivII, and over the last month have really enjoyed the new challenges of CivIII.

One of those new "features", however is very poorly implemented-that of resource depletion. While the idea is a good one, the way it happens in the game makes no sense at all. . .


Anyone else think this makes no sense?

A great deal of Civ III makes no sense at all - such as a civ building happiness Wonders while being invaded, or not being able to sink any warship with bombers, or elephant units having airlift capabilities, etc, etc.

I long ago went in the Editor and increased the likelihood of resources and diminished their chance of vanishing, especially with iron; less so with oil. Resources should be rare - but not SO rare your entire foreign policy revolves around starting a war over the only iron tile I can find.

And why is coal so hard to see? Bad design.

You do the same. If Sid had playtested this baby before it was marketed he'd have done it also.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

has anyone ever discovered a new source of something he didn`t have already?????

 

[s3d]

Originally posted by Zouave




Resources should be rare - but not SO rare your entire foreign policy revolves around starting a war over the only iron tile I can find.

Why ? Japan went into WWII because it had no access to oil...

 

[CrazyScientist]

I definitely like the idea that resources can be depleted, but I think there should probably be some change in the way it is handled in the game.
I have no problem with my iron running out, but it seems odd that it should run out if I haven't used any. What happened to it if it wasn't mined and taken away by me?
Seems to me they should make it similar to the way resources are handled in games like starcraft or warcraft. Every turn you have a road to a resource it depletes by a little bit, but you get that amount in storage. Units and buildings that use that resource cost a certain amount of it. Tiles being worked by citizens deplete the resource faster, and you have no way of knowing how much is left, except maybe by a vague graphical representation like the pile getting smaller.
That way, when a resource runs out, you aren't left completely out in the cold, but you've only got a little bit left to spend. because you aren't taking in any more. So the motive to go to war over resources remains.
Also, some units should then cost more of a certain resources than others. A tank should use maybe ten times the iron that a swordsman would, and twice the rubber of an infantry unit.
I guess this would probably be a bit too complicated for civ, but its a thought.

 

[Cantankerous]

Resource depletion can be a frustrating factor. I too think that resources should deplete, but the system as it is can be more than a bit frustrating.

Looking at the Civ 3 editor, it says that resources deplete as follows:

Horses -- never depletes
Iron -- a 1-in-800 chance of depletion
Saltpeter -- a 1-in-800 chance of depletion
Coal -- a 1-in-400 chance of depletion
Rubber -- never depletes
Aluminun -- a 1-in-400 chance of depletion
Oil -- a 1-in-200 chance of depletion
Uranium -- a 1-in-100 chance of depletion

But with this system some really weird things can happen.

In my current game, I went to war to secure uranium. When the wars were over I had three resources...that is until they each depleted within a 10 or 12 turn span of game time. So I placed a colony on a uranium source that just beyond my borders. Three turns later it was depleted!

What's going on here? Four sources of uranium depleting at intervals so close...that's some funky random number strings going on there.

And according to the editor help menus, if a resource depletes, another source is supposed to reappear somewhere else on the map. Well, I control the largest amount of land of any other civ (in my game) on a huge map, but I haven't seen any new sources of uranium pop up anywhere near me.

Oddly enough, another really strange thing occurred on the very turn that I finished researching refining: I got a message at the beginning of my turn saying that a source of oil had been depleted!! On the same turn it was discovered!! I didn't even get a chance to use it!

Seems odd...I'll shut up now.

Cantankerous
Emperor of all things grumpy

 

[Troyens]

Depletion of resources should reflect the USE of that resource.


I have had iron vanish within ten turns of being hooked up to the trade network before I built a single iron-needing unit!!

I have had other iron tiles supply vast armies of swordsmen and pikemen, and more, and never run out.

If this is the way the game is I'll have to edit resources and prevent them for ever being depleted.

 

[etj4Eagle]

For these sudden dissapearances of a resource that was hardly used, I just chalk this up to my surveyors mistaking the size of the deposit. That they had thought they had a nice sized deposit there, but in reality there was no depth to it.

I think the biggest problem with some of the ideas on how to change the way resources work (particularly the ones that want you to value additional deposits), is that this will actually make it harder to get the AI to trade the deposit (and often these suggestions are in threads complaing that the AI charges an arm and a leg for a resource. The reason why it is a problem is that right now, there is value in one of the resource for the AI. But the 2nd and subsequent have no value to the AI. If you change the way resources work, you risk making the AI value those additional deposits and being even more unwilling to trade them.

Of course I do like this idea of making the resources work a bit more like the ones in RTS games. But care has to be taken to avoid making it harder for the player to acquire resources via trading. Or make the AI more war happy in wanting to acquire all the resources on the planet.

 

[cephyn]

Originally posted by Killer
has anyone ever discovered a new source of something he didn`t have already?????

Yup.

Saltpeter and Oil have both appeared in my territory.

 

[NapoleonXIII]

...
There IS something "rotten" with the depeltion of recources BESIDES the settable ratio (1:800, 1:400 or whatever).

I've done some experiments. I go BACK on the autosaved version 2 turns before the recource was depleted (in my case Salpeter). It DID dissapear also NEXT time I played the "same" turn. I repeated this twice. SAME result . I also opened a much older saved game and re-plyed until the same turn as depletion was a fact earlier. No, it did not dissapear the same turn. It dissapeared ONE TURN LATER I think there is enough evidence for a hidden alorithm here. Not only the 1:400 chanse or whatever.

Napoleon XIII

 

[Ironikinit]

You've noticed that combat results are usually the same after you reload, right? Same deal with resources, I guess. Not surprising, given that both rely on random numbers. You should be able to manipulate the result somewhat by resetting the seed.

As for the second test you ran where the resource disappeared a turn later than it did before, that could be enough reason to run some more tests, but not, statistically speaking enough reason to draw any conclusions.

Getting at the guts of a game like Civ is tedious work, because simply reloading doesn't give a new sample.