Designing Byzantium for Civ7

[Murloc777]

Religion again?

 

[Zaarin]

Leader: Alexios I Komnenos: Komnenian Restoration: Gain an extra trade route for each city with walls; gain an extra trade route for each city lost; gain +5 combat strength against any civilization that has taken a Byzantine city.
Civ Ability: Ecumenical Patriarchate: Trade routes from the capital carry double religious pressure; the capital exudes double religious pressure.
Unique District: Laura: Per the Civ6 district, but it also gives half its adjacency bonus as Culture.
Unique Unit: Dromon

"I have sailed the seas and come/To the holy city of Byzantium."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Let's not have too many Greek leaders this time.
This is sort of based on my original ideas for Byzantium for Civ 6 before they were announced.

Leader Justinian:
Renovatio Imperii- Builders may use a charge to repair pillaged districts and buildings. Combat strength against cities and units in territory that used to belong to Byzantium, or follow their religion.

Civ Ability: Ecumenical Patriarchate- You can purchase governmental policies with faith. You have access to a unique world congress with members of your religion? I think it might be an interesting idea to implement especially when it comes to the proposals of housing relics or not.

Unique District: I like the idea of giving the Lavra to the Byzantines.

UU: Dromon- Is their a better alternative? I think not.

 

[Zaarin]

Builders may use a charge to repair pillaged districts and buildings.

This shouldn't be a civ ability. This should just be how it works.

You have access to a unique world congress with members of your religion?

Ecumenical councils should also be a basic feature IMO.

I think it might be an interesting idea to implement especially when it comes to the proposals of housing relics or not.

*religious art

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ecumenical councils should also be a basic feature IMO.

That would be interesting. If Ecumenical Councils are a they should have the power to choose proposals or have their votes count more.

If it's not universal, I see it as similar to Sweden and Nobel Prizes whereas it will be available as long as Byzantium is playable in the game. You just have to be the same religion as them.
Even if they don't spread their religion I guess they get to be the only ones on the council and vote on what they want.

*religious art

That too.

 

[Zaarin]

That would be interesting. If Ecumenical Councils are a they should have the power to choose proposals or have their votes count more.

If it's not universal, I see it as similar to Sweden and Nobel Prizes whereas it will be available as long as Byzantium is playable in the game. You just have to be the same religion as them.
Even if they don't spread their religion I guess they get to be the only ones on the council and vote on what they want.

In Civ7, I'd like to see religion detached from top-level control and not bound to any particular civilization. Ecumenical councils would be meetings among civilizations that have the same state religion to vote on religious matters; they can lead to schisms. Reformations would work similarly to schisms mechanically but would be triggered by a Great Theologian.

 

[mitsho]

Actually, I hope they don't. ;-) The Byzantines are a prime example what a dynamic civ system could do. They could be one "evolution" within the Roman and Greek Civs for example, or one of two pre-civs for Russia (the other being the Vikings ). I'm just being a little bit crazy here, but I just feel they could get creative here.

It's no question though that the Byzantines deserve their own slot in a 50-80 civ lineup. And then yes, crazy palace intrigues and horse races in the Urban Metropolis of the Capital, let's go!

 

[Zaarin]

The Byzantines are a prime example what a dynamic civ system could do.

I love Humankind. I don't want Civ7 to be Humankind.

or one of two pre-civs for Russia (the other being the Vikings ).

Just because the Romanovs called themselves Third Rome doesn't mean they're actually a successor state to the Roman Empire...Also, "Viking" is a profession, not a civilization.

 

[mitsho]

Well you know, as always, I‘m completely serious here and believe in everything I say. Or rather: I go at it with the question „What would be fun?“, since you know - I know that Civilization can never be a historical game anyways. ;-)

 

[Zaarin]

Well you know, as always, I‘m completely serious here and believe in everything I say. Or rather: I go at it with the question „What would be fun?“, since you know - I know that Civilization can never be a historical game anyways. ;-)

I think there has to be a balance between fun and historicity. Civ is not a history simulator, as you say, but the historical flavor is its chief point of appeal over other 4X games. In the context of Civilization, I don't mind the idea of evolving civs in the sense that civilizations can develop new abilities over the course of the game, but I don't like the idea of anything that radically changes the civ's identity. Essentialism is nonsense historically, but it's part and parcel of Civilization.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I'll try Byzantium. I don't have them in my personal Civ 7 vision (not as a basegame civ at least), but I have thought about what their potential abilities could look like.

Though, I will note; I do have Byzantium written down as a subset of the Roman Civilization, meaning that they share some abilities with Rome.

Leader - Irene of Athens (just so that we have a different leader to the ones already suggested here)
Leader Ability: Iconophilia - After completing your first Holy Site, receive a free Relic. Cities with a displayed Relic generate Culture equal to 50% of their Faith output. Great Works and Artefacts generate +1 Faith and +1 Science. +1 Trade Route Capacity each time you find a relic, or discover a tenet for your founded religion.

Civilization Ability: Macedonian Renaissance. Military units can capture the great people claimed by other civilizations and use their abilities. Each time Byzantium earns a Great Person, Byzantium receives a Eureka (Scientist, General, Admiral, Engineer, Merchant) or Inspiration (Writer, Artist, Musician, Prophet). Every time another civilization earns a Great Person, Byzantium receives a burst of GP points towards the next one (equal to ten times the GP points Byzantium makes for the corresponding GP type)

Unique Unit: Dromon. The Dromon replaces the Quadrireme and has a stronger base attack. After Byzantium has researched Naval Tradition, it gains a unique Fire Siphon attack against adjacent enemy naval units, setting them on fire. Burning ships take an additional 15% of the inflicted damage on the next three turns unless they Quench The Flames (a unique action that forces a ship to use all of its action points but stops the Burning effect). Great Admirals can protect friendly ships from the burning attack's damage but won't stop the fire itself. Multiple burns do not stack. Burning ships also cannot be repaired as long as they are on fire. Land units cannot be burnt, and neither can modern warships, such as the Ironclad and the Battleship. Fire Siphon needs to recharge after use, by moving the Dromon onto a friendly Harbor tile.

Unique Building: Basilica: Temple Replacement, unlocks at Astrology. Half price, grants an additional Great Prophet point and has a generic slot for a Great Work of choice, in addition to the Relic slot.

Sigil: a stylized version of the Byzantine flag, Gold on Purple. (alt colour of Gold on Red)

City list:
Capital: Constantinopolis
Other Cities: Antiocheia, Hadrianopolis, Nicaea, Thessalonica, Athina, Trapezus, Iconium, Nicomedia, Laodiceia, Dorylaeum, Ioannina, Smyrna, Amorium, Sinope, Cherson, Ancyra, Dyrrachium, Larissa, Naissus, Theodosiopolis, Myra, Amisus, Mesembria, Odessos, Chandax, Philipopolis, Heracleia, Mystras, Ani, Edessa, Amaseia, Famagusta, Bari, Nicopolis, Selymbra, Lefkosia, Scodra, Chalcedon, Cephalonia, Phanagoria, Xanthus, Philadelphia, Attaleia, Seleucia, Iustinianopolis, Epirus, Theodosia, Kastoria, Amastris, Syllaeum & Isaura.

I really wish I had the room to give Byzantium an additional unique unit (like the Varangian Guard, the Peltast or even the Tagma again), but I think the abilities I wrote down are already more than strong enough as is.

 

[Zaarin]

After completing your first Holy Site, receive a free Relic. Cities with a displayed Relic generate Culture equal to 50% of their Faith output. Great Works and Artefacts generate +1 Faith and +1 Science. +1 Trade Route Capacity each time you find a relic, or discover a tenet for your founded religion.

I like this a lot.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Religion again?

Two underlying themes.
- Religion (Usually Orthodox dictatorship, particularly after the Rise of Islam in 7th Century, and later the rise of Holy Roman Empire some few centuries later, were there any documents that Orthodox priests persecuted Muslim missionaries there?)
- Mercantile (The very reasons why Crusaders robbed Constantinople later on)

Unique Units.
- Chelande: Flamethrower mounted galley (Melee), available early in Medieval Era (Their naval developments took place few centuries AFTER Western Roman Empire fell, Dromon appearances in the Classical era is 'wrong' , and 'Dromon' should be 'generic unit' accessible to all because Arabians, Italians, and elsewhere in Western Europe (France and England too! the term 'Dromond' and 'Dromont' exists in both respective language referred to a kind of big ships in the medieval era) all had and built ones with some differentiations to Byzantine origins. notably those foreigh copies were lack of Siphon flamethrowers, and Arabian variants were wider so to accomodate more muslim marines to control Oarsmen (early Arabian galley oarsmen were christians dwelled in newly conquered cities now under Islamic overlord rules.)
Unique Infrastructure: Laura (Actually Civ6 Lavra, actually Byzantine built ones first and should have ones instead of Russians even with both civs were Eastern Orthodox empires)
I don't really agree with them having Chariot racing tracks actually.

 

[Zaarin]

Usually Orthodox dictatorship

Like the pope, the power of the Patriarch may be overstated. He held considerable influence at court, yes, but he had no direct civil authority.

were there any documents that Orthodox priests persecuted Muslim missionaries there?

Pagans and heretics were persecuted by the Byzantine Empire. Jews were usually tolerated, occasionally persecuted. I'm not aware, however, of Muslims having a significant presence in the Byzantine Empire until it was conquered by the Ottomans.

even with both civs were Eastern Orthodox empires

Which is fascinatingly no longer true now that the Russian Orthodox Church has broken communion with Constantinople.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ When did Russian Church broke coomution with Constantinople? After the City fell in 145x ? or before that?
If so then who should have Laura? Russia or Byzantines? Mine goes for Byzantines.

 

[Zaarin]

When did Russian Church broke coomution with Constantinople? After the City fell in 145x ? or before that?

Very recently. I want to say 2019? I don't recall the exact issue, but as I recall it involved geopolitics more than church politics or theology.

If so then who should have Laura? Russia or Byzantines? Mine goes for Byzantines.

I think the Laura is appropriate to any Eastern Orthodox civilization but the most appropriate for Byzantium; if Byzantium has another unique, however, it is appropriate for Bulgaria, Russia, etc. (That being said, I really like the suggestion others made of the Pogost for Russia in Civ7.)

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Very recently. I want to say 2019? I don't recall the exact issue, but as I recall it involved geopolitics more than church politics or theology.

Because of Russian Church is now firmly under Putin's control just like Old Imperial Russia?

And your view on Dromon status VS my proposal--the Chelande?

 

[Zaarin]

Because of Russian Church is now firmly under Putin's control just like Old Imperial Russia?

Yes. As an Orthodoxophile, it's sad to see.

And your view on Dromon status VS my proposal--the Chelande?

I'm not familiar enough with naval history to express a strong opinion, but from what I can find the khelandion, or chelande, seems like an option at least worth considering. The Naval Encyclopedia, whose reliability I know nothing about, says it was an admiralty ship so that seems promising. On the other hand, the dromon is more famous and, to my knowledge, was the backbone of the Byzantine fleet.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I'm not familiar enough with naval history to express a strong opinion, but from what I can find the khelandion, or chelande, seems like an option at least worth considering. The Naval Encyclopedia, whose reliability I know nothing about, says it was an admiralty ship so that seems promising. On the other hand, the dromon is more famous and, to my knowledge, was the backbone of the Byzantine fleet.

Particularly those with Siphon flamethrowers.
1. But.. Somebody elses in the Mediterranean used Dromons as well.
1.1 Arabs; After they took Egypt and the Levant early, used ships made by local shipwrights formerly worked for Byzantium. eventually these ships were modified because Arabian preferred galley oarsmen were Christians in conquered cities (later on there were fellow muslims as well). Arabian Dromons were designed to house more marines so to coerce, or even double as oarsmen in case of emergency, isn't it better to have loyal oarsmen willing to row and if needed be, fight for their superiors?)
1.2 Italians (Genoa, and maybe Venice, amongs with somebody elses might operated ones) ; https://thelosttreasurechest.wordpress.com/ship-gallery/genoese-dromone-11th-century/
1.3 French an English (Commission built I think)
None of these had Siphon flamethrowers.
2. And 'Dromon' using 'flamethrowers' at long range isn't really accurate.
So i'd chose Chelande as a name for Byzantine UU and being melee unit with stronger attack (well unless naval ranged combats were modified so that Siphon flamerthrowers will not be used against land targets, but even so, flamethrowers are CLOSE QUARTER RANGED weapons).

And more on 'Cataphracts' / Tagma.
Nah!
'Cataphracts' were also used by anybody elses, actually inventions of horselords like Scythians and Persians because these people refined horsemanships and even developed big warhorses first to support big men in heavy armor and even horse bardings.

 

[Evie]

Lonecat...

I know they're called "unique" units, but the very idea of a unit that's absolutely unique to one civilization is, essentially, ahistorical. It happenec ocasionally, on the rare occasions where weapons and units used a technological wonder that couldn't easily be duplicated (ie, mostly greek fire), but by and large, the moment a civilization came up with a military concept, everyone else nearby basically copied it.

HK has the right idea in using "emblematic" rather than unique, but that's still what Civ Uniques represent: a unit or building that ismiconically associated with that civilzatiom - even if others also built it.