Despotism to monarchy help

[Aabraxan]

. . . . Using the Republic effectively means you have to take the time to perfect everything, which mean you probably won't declare war until the industrial age. You'd have to work every tile, get every tech, and build every improvement you can before you declare war. . . . .

Not really. I use Republic constantly. I've never made it to the Middle Ages without war. Sure, you should work every tile, but that's true regardless of your government.

But, yes:

And using it properly means managing your cities every other turn.

Republic does require paying a little extra attention to your cities, but shouldn't you be paying attention to them, anyways?

For Monarchy, all you need are shields and money, and the best damn unit in your time period. Wars start in the Ancient Age, and by the time the game ends, every civ is so hindered in tech that you only reach the early industrial age.

Monarchy doesn't provide any more shields than Republic does, and it provides less money. The additional commerce speeds research and helps you pay for unit upgrades. And I'm not sure I understand why it'd be a bonus to have "every civ [. . . ] civ so hindered in tech that you only reach the early industrial age." To my mind, the question is not whether I can slow the whole world's tech pace down, only whether I can keep up.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Your tone indicates that you may have misunderstood me. It sounds as if you think Vanilla is somehow "easier" than C3C. That's not really the case. Even though the games look and feel the same, there are a lot of differences between C3C and Vanilla. Some subtle, some important... some of them game-altering.

The difference between Vanilla Republic and C3C Republic is game-altering; perhaps moreso than the Statue of Zeus.

No, I know that Vanilla isn't easier than C3C, but I wasn't saying anything about republic or any other differences, just that since democracy is the same in Vanilla and C3C, then it should theoretically be possible in C3C with democracy or republic.

 

[Lord Templar]

How can you say Feudalism sucks? Its very good for a war-going civ. Republic sucks. Hardly any unit support and who cares about commerce. Produce an army that cannot be rivaled on this earth. Democracy and Republic are totally useless. Maybe in like the Modern age but what is the point of making a beeline to it?

-The truth-


-Feudalism:
-Republic :
-Democracy:

 

[civverguy]

How can you say Feudalism sucks? Its very good for a war-going civ. Republic sucks. Hardly any unit support and who cares about commerce. Produce an army that cannot be rivaled on this earth. Democracy and Republic are totally useless. Maybe in like the Modern age but what is the point of making a beeline to it?

-The truth-


-Feudalism:
-Republic :
-Democracy:

All government can be great is used well. You probably aren't using Republic or Democracy right.

 

[Lord Templar]

How can you possibly use a government with no unit support?

 

[anaxagoras]

How can you possibly use a government with no unit support?

Most people don't. At least in C3C, Republic has some unit support. Most people don't use Democracy, since there are few advantages and significant drawbacks compared to Republic.

Even in Vanilla, though, where Republic has no unit support, it is still worth it in most cases. The combination of increased commerce and lower corruption makes up for the lack of unit support.

 

[Lord Templar]

Still , what is so great ? What are these "advantages" in republic. Please enlighten me.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

60-70% more commerce. Sure, with Monarchy you might make up for some of that wrt to your monetary income, but never wrt to science.

 

[JDAllison]

1) Are you roading/railroading every tile in your city radii? This provides for maximum commerce, which exchanges into gold, science, and luxuries.

2) Are you irrigating or mining all applicable tiles in your city radii? This allows for maximum growth and shield production. More citizens=more tiles worked=more commerce=more gold, science, and luxuries.

3) Are you building marketplaces in all cities >5 pop? This (a) maximizes lux resource allocation to happiness and (b) increases total tax revenue by 50% of base. Note on (a): A city without a marketplace that has 6 lux resources in the resource box (for instance, silks, gems, incense, ivory, furs, and spices) will produce fewer content faces than the same city with a marketplace. In the latter example, the first two lux produce one content face each, the next two produce two each, the next two three each, and the fifth and beyond four each. IIRC, these must be unique resources (IOW, two sources of spices count as one in the calculations). The effect of this is that fewer workers must be used as entertainers, and fewer happiness-producing improvements must be built. This saves shields and gpt. Sure, 1gpt isn't much for a temple, but consider the effect when you have >50 cities, each with a 1 gpt temple. Starts to add up.

4) Are you building cities as fast as possible? I make it a policy to not leave the REX phase until AD1000 or I run out of expansion room, whichever happens first. This means I very rarely get AA wonders (but who needs 'em, anyhow?) and that I have less infrastructure in my core cities than some other players. This is, of course, a guideline, not a command of God. If settlers built in a particular city are going to take more than, say, 10 turns to reach a viable city location, then I switch production to infrastructure and/or units - usually workers. More cities=more citizens=commerce and more taxpayers=more gold, science, and luxuries.

5) Are you building libraries in all established cities after leaving the REX phase? This does two things: (a) it gives a culture boost, allowing you to cover more territory (and thereby gain valuable resources and terrain) and (b) gives you 50% more science than the base amount in that city. The caveat is that you gotta watch your corruption levels and not build them in cities that are either not producing more than one or two shields per turn and/or those where the science rate is abysmal to begin with.

6) Do you know what a specialist farm is and how to use it? This is a relatively new technique for me, but it seems quite powerful. It does increase the level of micromanagement needed, but all good things have a price. This can make or break a game. A good specialist farming gameplan can leave your civ an age ahead of the competition.

I hope this helps. If anyone wants to add to this or help me refine it, have at it.

 

[Aceman101]

Very good advice.

but...

5) Are you building libraries in all established cities after leaving the REX phase? This does two things: (a) it gives a culture boost, allowing you to cover more territory (and thereby gain valuable resources and terrain) and (b) gives you 50% more science than the base amount in that city. The caveat is that you gotta watch your corruption levels and not build them in cities that are either not producing more than one or two shields per turn and/or those where the science rate is abysmal to begin with.

I don't understand why you shouldn't be building libraries in cities that are producing two to three shields per turn. The city might be producing like 20 commerce but only a mediocre amount of shields.

With that said, I think you were looking at it from a different perspective. You might have meant the shields as an example of the high corruption levels not to build a library in. In that case, I agree.

Edit: Damn! Why am I agreeing that Republic is good in civ!

I'm a person that likes Monarchy, myself, but all above tips are valid for Monarchy too.

 

[Lord Templar]

When you say building libararys, I am a miserly person and I don't want to spend money on that stuff to much. Does Republic have an all city improvements free sort of thing cause I have seen that option in the editor.

 

[Aceman101]

No. I'm pretty sure you have to pay standard rates for the city improvements in ALL governments.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

When you say building libararys, I am a miserly person and I don't want to spend money on that stuff to much. Does Republic have an all city improvements free sort of thing cause I have seen that option in the editor.

No. It is just that in many cases it doesn't even pay to build a library in a city in a government other than Republic.

 

[JDAllison]

I don't understand why you shouldn't be building libraries in cities that are producing two to three shields per turn. The city might be producing like 20 commerce but only a mediocre amount of shields.

With that said, I think you were looking at it from a different perspective. You might have meant the shields as an example of the high corruption levels not to build a library in. In that case, I agree.

Yeah, you're right: I was thinking of the city that's so high in corruption that there are only one or two shields left over. But that's just a rule of thumb. I have been known to rushbuild one in areas where I ordinarily wouldn't (for culture, etc.).

The thing about Monarchy (or Fascism for that matter) vs. Republic, though, is the increased commerce in Republic. Early on, this may not make much of a difference. But when you get the multiplier improvements, the roads (and later railroads), and so forth, you can really leave all but a Democracy far behind. Especially since you can also go for a conquest victory in Republic, as long as you carefully manage your lux slider.

I recently played one against 30 AIs where I was at peace maybe 10-15 turns the whole game. The majority of those were very early on (before I met anyone). I went straight to Republic and stayed there. I was the aggressor, too, and ROP raped a couple people to get what I wanted. War weariness wasn't an issue with me. By the end of the game, I was actually disbanding front-line troops, not because I couldn't afford them, but because
I simply didn't need them. I was disbanding them in cities and using the shields to rush improvements. After excess unit support, 50% lux (for WLT*D, not to combat WW), and 50% science, I was still raking in over 750gpt. It was up to 2000gpt at one point.

Add into that the fact that you lose population when a new Fascist regime takes power, the whipping of pop to rushbuild, and you start coming out on the short end of the stick. More citizens=more taxpayers=more gold, science, and luxuries.

Makin' sense yet?

 

[MAS]

How can you possibly use a government with no unit support?

Look, its quite simple:

A size 12 city:
In vanilla and PTW:
Monarchy bonus is the support cost of 4 units. If you don't need 4 units, the bonus is wasted.
Republic bonus is 13 commerce.
You could do all kinds of things with those 13 commerce, you could pay the support of 13 units with it, and with a marketplace, you could pay the support of 18 units with it. And if you don't need 18 units, you can up the SCI slider and spend it on science instead.

In conquest:
Monarchy bonus is the support cost of 4 units. If you don't need 4 units, the bonus is wasted.
Republic bonus is 13 commerce and the support cost of 3 units. (only one less than monarchy)
You could do all kinds of things with those 13 commerce, you could pay the support of 6 units with it, (2g per unit) and with a marketplace, you could pay the support of 9 units with it. So the total bonus amounts to 12 units in republic. But if you don't need 12 units, you can up the SCI slider and spend it on science instead.

The problem with the commerce bonus is that it gets lost to corruption. However, corruption is only a major issue if you have a big expanding empire, and thus cities are build far away from the capital.
And the bigger your empire, the less units you need relative to the number of cities.

So, by the time I reach the industrial age, with over 100 towns/cities, the 1/3/4 unit support in republic is all I ever need, and most of my commerce, including the bonus, goes to science, or is used to cash-rush. When fascism comes along, I already railed my whole empire, so the worker speed bonus of fascism is also lost on me. Also by this time, the game is almost over, its not worth spending 9 turns in anarchy,

 

[anaxagoras]

A size 12 city:

Republic bonus is 13 commerce.

Just a quick caveat that the assumption here is that you have roaded EVERY worked tile. You should do that, anyway, Monarchy or Republic, but I just wanted to point out that it is particularly important when you are figuring the Republic bonus. If you haven't improved any tiles on a waterless city, the Republic bonus would actually be just one commerce.

But you SHOULD be improving every tile any citizen works, so 13 is a good assumption.

 

[JDAllison]

And that's where a good specialist farm gameplan comes into play. These cities with high corruption can be turned into science specialist farms, and start pumping beakers into your scientific research. This allows you to either discover new techs faster, or lower the science slider slightly and pour the money into either gold or the lux slider. If you pour it into gold, you can use it to rushbuild workers in low-production cities (thereby obviating the need for insane worker efficiency through the use of worker stacks), other units, or multiplier buildings. Or use it to buy off the AI for something you want or something you don't want another AI to have.

 

[anaxagoras]

And that's where a good specialist farm gameplan comes into play. These cities with high corruption can be turned into science specialist farms, and start pumping beakers into your scientific research.

All very true, but specialist farms work whether you are in Monarchy or Republic, so they aren't really grounds for choosing between the two kinds of government.

 

[JDAllison]

All very true, but specialist farms work whether you are in Monarchy or Republic, so they aren't really grounds for choosing between the two kinds of government.

Yeah, I can agree with that. In fact, I'd say off hand that's the only "peaceful" way to keep up in science when using certain governments (Communism comes to mind). But, there again, with a ton of cities, each with elevated commerce, a good FP placement, and smart use of specialists and multiplier buildings, Republic is going to be hard to beat. I will admit that Monarchy could definitely approach it, but I maintain that only Democracy could possibly surpass it - and that with certain crucial drawbacks.

 

[Da Bilge Troll]

why when i switch form despotism to monarchy i am going fomr 20 to 30 plus to -10 or something same thing with republic i dont understand this

Back to your original question, are you saying "at the same research level"? If so, you can research a tech in the same number of turns at a lower level (i.e. 40% vs. 60%) with a government than without because of lower corruption. You may be expecting to run your research at the same level.

The other possibility is that when you first come out of a revolution, your cities are a mess because of all the specialist citizens the governors set up to keep riots from breaking out. This will solve itself by the next turn but it is better to call up a governor display and just hit enter as soon as you have a new government. That resets the automatic governors.