Dev Diaries: Plans for 1.15

[Leoreth]

The release of 1.14 is on track and will probably happen some time next week.

But I am already getting started on 1.15 which will mostly focus on one goal: Moving to the History Rewritten tech tree

For everyone not familiar with that mod, here it is: HR Tech Tree (or with text: PDF format) [note: arrows indicate AND requirements]

I think that it's vastly better than the (mostly) vanilla tech tree DoC uses right now. The tech progression feels more historical and is more universal across all civilizations. It's also more granular (i.e. more techs), which is good because DoC added a lot of stuff which made some techs quite heavy on effects. More techs allows me to spread those things out. Lastly and probably most controversially, the HR tech tree uses more AND as opposed to OR requirements which limits the potential for beelining. For a historical mod however this is mostly appropriate. In turn I think I can lift some currently existing penalties that are meant to disincentivize beelining.

I am basically simply copying over the whole tech tree, and then place all DoC assets (units, buildings ...) on the techs. Where HR and DoC share an asset, it will be placed according to HR. DoC additions not present in HR (e.g. all wonders) will be placed where most appropriate. Not all tech positions of assets from HR will be appropriate for DoC (for instance, I think cottages need to come earlier). Most of the process of 1.15 will consist of figuring these things out, and adjusting the overall tech speed.

Pre-emptive FAQ:

1) There is a lot of stuff in HR that does not exist in DoC, does that mean it will all be ported over?

I like some of the buildings added in HR, and might port some of them over. However, that will happen after the initial phase of simply porting over the techs. But I don't agree with everything HR does, and some of them just don't work in DoC. I'll decide on a case by case basis, but don't expect all of the mod to transition to effectively use HR as a base.

2) With some HR stuff not being ported over, won't that leave some techs empty and useless?

I hope to be able to avoid that, but of course I can't know that before trying. If that turns out to be the case, we will have to come up with solutions in the process.

3) What about UHVs that rely on techs e.g. first to discover, founding religions, building wonders?

Everything of course will be adjusted to the new techs. That will also take some time and balancing work. Some old techs don't exist anymore and have either direct or indirect analogues that might exist in different positions in the tech tree. UHV goals are generally thematic in nature, so I will strive for thematic equivalence first. For example, Drama and Literature do not exist in HR, and might be replaced with Mathematics and Oratory for the Greek tech goal. If thematic equivalence leads to a change in gameplay challenge, either the goal or (worst case) the tech tree need to be adjusted. Again, this is something to be figured out in the process.

4) What about civics? HR has a pretty cool civics system. Can we expect another attempt at a better civics system? For like communism? Or WATERMILLS?

As with everything else, the first step will be to place the current civics on the new techs. I'm unhappy with some parts of the current system that have been pointed out to an exhaustive degree, but I held off on changing them before the tech changes have dropped to avoid having to change everything twice. It's unclear to me now whether the HR civics are part of the solution but they are definitely something to look at for inspiration.

5) I don't like aspect X of the HR tech tree, can't we do something about it?

First off, I'm fairly set on the HR tech tree being superior to what DoC/BtS uses. So comments that follow the pattern of "just use the old one and make xyz changes" aren't going to be constructive or helpful.

That said, I am not wedded to every specific aspect of the HR tech setup. In fact, I have already identified some minor places for change. Suggestions in that vein are of course welcome. It's kind of challenging to modify the existing tree though, because it uses this rigid pattern where every position is occupied by a tech, which I find very neat and would not want to give up. Also, the current relationships between techs generally make a lot of intuitive sense and reflect the historical technological progression. Let's see what we can make work.


I have decided to use the entirety of 1.15 to make this work, because there is a lot to do, but I think it will be worth it in the end.

However, there are a couple of comparatively smaller things that slot in nicely with the tech changes. Most importantly, I will revisit both the land and sea unit rosters and make the unit choices more interesting there. Again, here we can probably use some stuff from HR and adapt it to DoC. This also includes some of the less invasive changes to warfare mechanics and rules that have been discussed in previous threads.

I'm excited to start with this.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

But but but I don't like change! D:

You know who else uses a tech tree with all AND and no OR prereqs? Civ5! You know what that leads to? Internet without Computers! *shudders*

What about the futuristic techs like Quantum Gravity or Nanotechnology? Do we really need them for a mod that's supposed to represent history?

4) What about civics? HR has a pretty cool civics system. Can we expect another attempt at a better civics system? For like communism? Or WATERMILLS?

:Napoleonangryanimation:

Edit: I already discovered a problem: How could you possibly have Refrigeration without Electricity?

Edit 2: Infrastructure? In the Modern era? What kind of generic name is that? What's it supposed to represent?

Edit 3: I really think Computers should be, if not necessary, at least an optional prereq to Genetics. Computers helped decode the human genome decades ahead of when most people assumed it would be possible.

Edit 4: What about all the ideological "techs" like Communism, Fascism or Democracy? They seem completely absent safe for Nationhood.

 

[Leoreth]

But but but I don't like change! D:

You know who else uses a tech tree with all AND and no OR prereqs? Civ5! You know what that leads to? Internet without Computers! *shudders*

I don't understand, OR is less restrictive than AND so it makes situations like Internet without Computers more ubiquitous.

What about the futuristic techs like Quantum Gravity or Nanotechnology? Do we really need them for a mod that's supposed to represent history?

Shrug, we currently have Fusion and things like this already, it's an inherent part of having some sort of Future era. If you play the historical game (UHV and the like) you're already out of the game.

Edit: I already discovered a problem: How could you possibly have Refrigeration without Electricity?

Chemical refrigeration, I suppose.

Edit 2: Infrastructure? In the Modern era? What kind of generic name is that? What's it supposed to represent?

Large scale public infrastructure like highways and so on. The name could be better but it's obvious from the effect what this is about.

Edit 3: I really think Computers should be, if not necessary, at least an optional prereq to Genetics. Computers helped decode the human genome decades ahead of when most people assumed it would be possible.

That makes a lot of sense, and Genetics only has one requirement right now anyway.

Edit 4: What about all the ideological "techs" like Communism, Fascism or Democracy? They seem completely absent safe for Nationhood.

Democracy or Representation are probably different words for the same idea (depending on what you use for the civic instead).

As for the others, I miss them too and have given some thought to how they would fit into the tree. HR seems to take the approach where social movements and ideologies are the consequences of technological change, which is a historical approach that I am also very sympathetic towards. For instance, things like Totalitarianism could also be enabled with a tech like Surveillance.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I don't understand, OR is less restrictive than AND so it makes situations like Internet without Computers more ubiquitous.

Well how do you explain this then? Notice how The Internet and Computers are literally on opposite sides of the tech tree. To add insult to injury there is no point in researching both in the same game as they are completely antithetical game mechanics wise, since the only thing the Internet does is help you with a culture victory while Computers leads to lots of military goodies for domination and to Alpha Centauri.

Chemical refrigeration, I suppose.

I still think Electricity should at least be an optional requirement.

Edit: How come you can research Refrigeration without Chemistry then?

As for the others, I miss them too and have given some thought to how they would fit into the tree. HR seems to take the approach where social movements and ideologies are the consequences of technological change, which is a historical approach that I am also very sympathetic towards. For instance, things like Totalitarianism could also be enabled with a tech like Surveillance.

I see you have finally come around to the correct, that is materialistic, way of thinking.

 

[Leoreth]

Well how do you explain this then? Notice how The Internet and Computers are literally on opposite sides of the tech tree. To add insult to injury there is no point in researching both in the same game as they are completely antithetical game mechanics wise, since the only thing the Internet does is help you with a culture victory while Computers leads to lots of military goodies for domination and to Alpha Centauri.

Maybe the Civ5 tech tree makes no sense, but we're not discussing using this tech tree. This issue seems unrelated to AND vs. OR and is simply an issue of not completely thought through requirements. This example makes no argument why AND vs. OR would cause the outcome you were talking about at least.

I still think Electricity should at least be an optional requirement.

Is there even such a thing as an optional requirement?

But Computers in HR does require Electricity. Both of its requirements (Electronics and Mass Media) ultimately require Electricity.

Edit: How come you can research Refrigeration without Chemistry then?

Oh I see where your confusion comes from, and I probably should have explained that. Since HR mostly uses AND requirements, those are displayed with arrows instead. So Refrigeration requires both Fertilizer and Chemistry.

I see you have finally come around to the correct, that is materialistic, way of thinking.

If you hadn't bought into your own propaganda about me or my motivations you would not be surprised.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Maybe the Civ5 tech tree makes no sense, but we're not discussing using this tech tree. This issue seems unrelated to AND vs. OR and is simply an issue of not completely thought through requirements. This example makes no argument why AND vs. OR would cause the outcome you were talking about at least.

Maybe I want to point out that regardless of AND or OR prereqs you can still have a tech tree that makes no sense? Maybe I just wanted to make a cheep shot against Civ5? Maybe I don't know where I am going with this and just keep throwing out rhetorical questions until I remember what my point was?

Is there even such a thing as an optional requirement?

I guess? Maybe? Yes? No?

But Computers in HR does require Electricity. Both of its requirements (Electronics and Mass Media) ultimately require Electricity.

I don't care about computers, ( please don't ever make me type something like that again ) my point is that Refrigeration doesn't seem to require Electricity even optionally.

Oh I see where your confusion comes from, and I probably should have explained that. Since HR mostly uses AND requirements, those are displayed with arrows instead. So Refrigeration requires both Fertilizer and Chemistry.

Yes, explaining that could have cleared up quite a few misunderstandings. Am I to understand that those little images in the top right corner of some techs are optional requirements or what's up with those?

If you hadn't bought into your own propaganda about me or my motivations you would not be surprised.

Well... somebody obviously paid you to say that!

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe I want to point out that regardless of AND or OR prereqs you can still have a tech tree that makes no sense? Maybe I just wanted to make a cheep shot against Civ5? Maybe I don't know where I am going with this and just keep throwing out rhetorical questions until I remember what my point was?

Cheap shots against Civ5 are always fine with me so we're good

Yes, explaining that could have cleared up quite a few misunderstandings. Am I to understand that those little images in the top right corner of some techs are optional requirements or what's up with those?

You can't just have one optional requirement, these are also AND requirements that just cannot be displayed with arrows because of the locations of the techs.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

You can't just have one optional requirement, these are also AND requirements that just cannot be displayed with arrows because of the locations of the techs.

So there aren't any optional prereqs in the History Rewritten tech tree at all? Don't you think that's a bit too radical and constraining choice too much?

 

[Ani Taneen]

Edit 4: What about all the ideological "techs" like Communism, Fascism or Democracy? They seem completely absent safe for Nationhood.

I'm going to be very honest here, I feel that the long term solution will require a lot of work, but well...

I wonder if it is possible to have a cultural tech tree? What I mean is a seperate tech tree which uses culture to unlock the techs instead of science. What is unique is that tech tree will unlock the more ideological mechanics. What could be cool about this tech tree is that Ideologies spread based on your culture.

Meaning that being neighbors (Trade, open borders, pacts, etc are modifiying this) with a more culturally advanced civ leads to you unlocking the things they have unlocked faster too.

These techs, however, have both boons and banes. The things unlocked make older civics worse to run.

To limit this tech tree, I'd say there be three lines in it.

1. Economic (Representing choices between capitalism and communism), unlocked with Economics in the renisance era, it will make running Guilds, and eventually merchantilism, harder as things are unlocked
2. Social (Representing choices between liberalism and totalitarianism) Unlocked with humanities, it will have more religion related effects (reflecting the relationship between state & Church/Mosque in the late middle period. With industrialism and modernity it will have more pushes towards Democratic or Authoritarian goverment
3. Administartive (Unlocked with nationhood) The options in this line deal with colonialism and empire. Making you choose between running a common wealth of nations (vassals), a singular nation with a powerful core, or a wide empire stretching into historical and foreign lands

The idea is that whenever you have enough culture you can unlock an option from a list. some options will create negative stability with previous options. Crisis can cause you to lose unlocked slots (making you go back on the points acumulation).

Eventually can be tied to a civil war mechanic?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I wonder if it is possible to have a cultural tech tree? What I mean is a seperate tech tree which uses culture to unlock the techs instead of science. What is unique is that tech tree will unlock the more ideological mechanics. What could be cool about this tech tree is that Ideologies spread based on your culture.

That sounds like something a Civ5 spy would say!

Seriously though, I'm actually in favor of this idea. Imo divorcing religions and politics from the tech tree and giving them their own trees based on accumulating faith and culture respectively instead is one of the things Civ5 got right, at least in theory.

 

[Panopticon]

Technology is definitely caused by social movements...

 

[ales_]

I've never thought it would come to that... I don't recall such radical changes in the whole history of the modmod!
Besides, if you've got some questions about the tech tree, you may post them here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=431524. This way, you can receive answers from its creator and help the development of the mod.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I've posted there a bit already I think. If any intentions are unclear, I'll definitely contact Xyth. I have his blessing to port this over here by the way.

 

[Force44]

This might not be the best place for this suggestion/request, but I do consider it the appropriate time.

Now that you are extensively reworking the techtree could we have an alternative (second) route to do "things" ?

(specifically I am thinking here about getting rid of forests to replace them with more profitable improvements

A small techtree leading to chopping down forests for additional production and a (different) small techtree leading to burining down forests for additional growth/food (some time before techs can be traded) would lead to (imho) interesting options/strategy for early play especially in conjunction with the new/improved stability)

 

[Leoreth]

Why would that need to be on a separate tech tree?

 

[Force44]

It doesn't.

But (imo) to do it justice there should be some time (turns) between the acquiring the first method of getting rid of forests and the second. So choosing one way to get rid of the forests precludes you at least for some turns from getting rid of the forests the other way.

For me the first thing that came to mind was two different techtreebranches (<-perhaps this is a more accurate description) But I am sure other solutions can be found to the problem of how to preclude a second way of doing things for a couple of turns after a first way of doing things is acquired.

Ideally the two techs (that give you acces to the ability to get rid of the forests) should also be just as much (or more) turns of research removed from the ability to trade techs as one of them is of the other.

 

[Tigranes]

Vanila tech tree was around for such a long time, that one can say it withstood the test of time. Why fix something that was not broken? OR really allowed for some flexibility and DECISIONS, which is always fun, AND takes away that fun

If anything HR has another tech tree, not a better one, certainly not the best possible one! While it feels more historical in some instances it becomes less historical in others. Take Alphabet and Writing in vanila for example. Chinese never developed Alphabet, but using OR allows them to go pretty far in tech tree without ever needing to research Alphabet. Or think about Wheel and pre-Columbian. OR allows to do Construction without Wheel, but with HR tech tree that will no longer be possible. History in general has more OR feel than AND anyway.

Writing firmly belongs to ancient era, not classical (literature belongs to classical if anything). You already need to know writing of some form to keep records, or create a calendar. Plumbing and Sanitation sound very much alike, and yet they are separated by 2 eras, did Harappa have plumbing or sanitation? Or both? Metallurgy needs Chemistry more than Physics. Why would Bombards come before Muskets? Gunships do not belong to digital era. Development of Chemistry preceded development of Biology. National Gallery fits Heritage better than Civil Liberties. Etc, etc, etc. I can't even imagine how much rebalancing would be required for the mod with UHVs, such as "discover entire tech tree" or be first to build, etc -- we did spend so much time adjusting everything to the existing tree.

In short -- I pity all that energy, time and work which will go into this overhaul. Nothing in this new tech tree is too exciting in my opinion. Internal logic is at best debatable -- I really cannot image for the core players of this mod to look forward to this big blow to the existing balance, which was polished and fine tuned for years now. If one can imagine 3 dimensions in any mod -- length, width and depth, I think DoC is fine in width and length dimensions and at this stage can afford to focus on depth only. But now we will be facing width and length adjustments after all this years of fine tuning...

 

[Leoreth]

As per the above, not going to argue with you here I for one am looking forward to spending energy, time and work on this probably more than anything else that is coming up.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Take Alphabet and Writing in vanila for example. Chinese never developed Alphabet, but using OR allows them to go pretty far in tech tree without ever needing to research Alphabet. Or think about Wheel and pre-Columbian. OR allows to do Construction without Wheel, but with HR tech tree that will no longer be possible. History in general has more OR feel than AND anyway.

Let me say that I mostly agree with your point. That being said...

There is no alphabet on the tech tree. It has been replaced with writing and writing has been replaced with record keeping.

Writing firmly belongs to ancient era, not classical (literature belongs to classical if anything). You already need to know writing of some form to keep records, or create a calendar. Plumbing and Sanitation sound very much alike, and yet they are separated by 2 eras, did Harappa have plumbing or sanitation? Or both? Metallurgy needs Chemistry more than Physics. Why would Bombards come before Muskets? Gunships do not belong to digital era. Development of Chemistry preceded development of Biology. National Gallery fits Heritage better than Civil Liberties. Etc, etc, etc.

Again I agree. That being said, this is a game where the Greeks often build up Odessa, leading to the Polish empire being the heart of European Renaissance. Or my favorite, the Arabs invade a weak Chinese empire. Leading to a Muslim Mongol empire.

I can't even imagine how much rebalancing would be required for the mod with UHVs, such as "discover entire tech tree" or be first to build, etc -- we did spend so much time adjusting everything to the existing tree.

The more I think about, the more I realize that the biggest nightmare is religions at the moment. Already we see Confucian Rome and Taoist Egypt.

Does Judaism require Record Keeping? Is Hinduism a product of Divination? Should Confucianism be earned from employment? Is the Tao learned from Philosophy? Is Christianity a product of Charity or Theology? Is Islam born from Dogma?

The UHVs? That is easier to an extent. But maybe this will lead to splitting religion from the Tech tree

 

[Leoreth]

I agree that religions aren't that easy, but they required some shoehorning in the old tech tree as well. More techs overall potentially leaves more space to spread them out.