Did Firaxis completely forget about the Scout line of units?

[McKeu]

Moderator Action: Post edited to remove unnecessary and problematic language. Even in a benign context it can be seen as offensive. ~ LK

Fair enough. Sorry.

 

[Socrates99]

My idea was +5 each from the Ranger and Alpine promotions (in forests and on hills respectively) and then +10 from Ambush.

Yeah that'd make it +15 in either terrain but never +20. It'd be a nerf and you'd need an extra promo.

 

[KingPiggyXXI]

Well, if you're in both Forests and Hills, then that'd be a total of +20. It does require an extra Promotion, and it'd only be on par in specific circumstances, but it'll also give you some of the Combat Strength boosts earlier. Right now, the problem with Ambush is that you need a huge amount of experience, and bringing some of the Combat Strength earlier could help fix that somewhat.

 

[shaglio]

Yeah that'd make it +15 in either terrain but never +20. It'd be a nerf and you'd need an extra promo.

What if your Scout was on a forested hill tile? Wouldn't it still get the +20 then?

 

[Socrates99]

What if your Scout was on a forested hill tile? Wouldn't it still get the +20 then?

oops got me there. That'll teach me to never say never.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I posted this on Reddit, though I've expressed some of these ideas before here:

The first thing on my mind is to make the recon card also give +50% production to recon units; recon units besides the basic scout are extremely overpriced.

The 2nd thing is that I think the forest and hill promotions should render the scout invisible to all but adjacent units or enemy scouts in the relevant terrain. That would just make them more interesting. Recon units should be sneaky.

I'd add to the Guerilla promotion that a recon unit is able to escape from a losing fight. If a recon unit is attacked by a melee attack that would normally kill it, it can escape to an adjacent tile with 1 hp left. However, it will always take at least 1 damage, so if it's already at 1 hp it will die. This ability also won't work against ranged attacks, and will fail if there's no valid escape route.

Finally, I'd make it so that Skirmisher and above receive an additional reward from huts, so you'd actually want to upgrade them.

 

[The googles do nothing]

If Recon was given a defensive bonus to Ranged and city center attacks they would be useful to infiltrate behind enemy lines to pillage.

 

[Aurelesk]

Recon line will not be removed, because it is part of the barbarian search and swarm game. For the same reason the base strength will probably not altered either, otherwise they would be too strong to have a chance to destroy barb scouts before reaching their camps. But increasing their survivability with (1st tier) promotions could be a solution.

I disagree with that: they can make the Scout stronger while having the Barbarians one behave the same. One trick would be to make it Ranged like a Slinger (15 Ranged Strength, 10 Melee Strength), and forbid the Barbarian Scout to attack. It would make the Recon line more consistent (all would be Ranged), even if the Scout itself would make less sense. I guess Dogs and Cats are formidable and expandable throwable ammunition! In this case, the Scout would end up better than the Slinger...
Well, I quite lied: Barbarian Scouts would not behave completely the same. They would end up to be a real threat once you removed the Barbarian Outpost, since they tend to attack the closest unit or city in range. If they are a better Slinger, this will quite a challenge to destroy them.

One other way to make the Scout stronger while not making the Barbarian one harder to deal is to change the Experience gain and Promotion table. For example, Barracks, Armories and Military Academies could apply their +25% experience in combat modifier to the Recon lines, while expand the XP gain from discoveries. For example, they could have 5 XP each time they clear / disperse a Barbarian Outpost, or 2 XP each time they reveal an invisible units. Even more, they could gain 1 XP for each 10 tiles of Fog of War uncovered, as said by @Equilin
In short:

• Gain 10 XP for each natural Wonders uncovered
• Gain 5 XP for each Tribal Village cleared
• Gain 5 XP for each Barbarian Outpost cleared / dispersed
• Gain 1 XP for each 10 tiles of fog of war uncovered
• Gain 2 XP for each invisible unit uncovered
• Recon units now gain +25% combat experience from Barracks, Armory and Military Academy. Those modifiers do not increase Experience gain from discoveries.

For the Promotion table, the Ambush one is too powerful: the Recon line relies too much on it to be decent. On the contrary, that Promotion should be weaker in order to make the Recon line stronger from the start. I believe the Scout Promotion should be expanded: Ranger should work with Marsh terrain, Alpine should maybe even works with Mountains! Sentry (see through Woods/Rainforests) and Spyglass (+1 sight range) should be united as 1 Promotion, Camouflage should allow the Recon units to ignore Zone of Control...
In short:

• I - Ranger: Faster movement in Woods, Marsh and Jungle terrain.
• I - Alpine: Faster movement on Hill terrain. May cross Mountains (require 3 MP), taking 50 HP damage if they end a turn on a mountain.
• II - Sentry: Can see through Woods and Jungle. +1 sight range (fusion).
• II - Survivalism: +10 Combat Strength when defending. +10 HP healed per turn outside of friendly territory.
• III - Camouflage: Only adjacent enemy units can reveal this unit. Ignore Zone of Control.
• III - Ambush: +10 Combat Strength when attacking. Can move after attacking (fusion).
• IV - March: +1 Movement. Unit heals every turn, even if it performs an action.

Similarities with Civilization V's promotions and abilities would be pure coincidence.

I posted this on Reddit, though I've expressed some of these ideas before here:

The first thing on my mind is to make the recon card also give +50% production to recon units; recon units besides the basic scout are extremely overpriced.

The 2nd thing is that I think the forest and hill promotions should render the scout invisible to all but adjacent units or enemy scouts in the relevant terrain. That would just make them more interesting. Recon units should be sneaky.

I'd add to the Guerilla promotion that a recon unit is able to escape from a losing fight. If a recon unit is attacked by a melee attack that would normally kill it, it can escape to an adjacent tile with 1 hp left. However, it will always take at least 1 damage, so if it's already at 1 hp it will die. This ability also won't work against ranged attacks, and will fail if there's no valid escape route.

Finally, I'd make it so that Skirmisher and above receive an additional reward from huts, so you'd actually want to upgrade them.

The lack of Production cards makes the Recon lines weaker in comparison. They should add those to the game, and maybe include the Support units in that card. Maybe they could add more policy cards to further increase their strength to Exploration and actual Recon. For example:

• Survey (Code of Laws): +50% Production towards Recon and Support units from Ancient and Classical Era.
• Supervision (Civil Service): +50% Production towards Recon and Support units from the Industrial era or earlier.
• Patriotic War (Ideology): +50% Production toward all Recon and Support units (revived).
• Defense of the Motherland (Class Struggle): No war weariness from combat in your territory. Units inside your territory do not consume Horses, Coal or Oil as Strategic Maintenance. (because the Patriotic War took the +50% Production part).
• Discipline (Code of Laws): +5 Combat Strength against Barbarians. Double experience for Recon units from discoveries.
• First Spotting (Exploration): +1 Sight Range and +2 Movement for Recon units if embarked. Do not make Discipline obsolete.
• Reconnaissance (Cold War): Double range for Paradropping. Recon units ignore Closed Borders: they generate 1 Grievance per turn doing so if visible. Do not make Discipline and First Spotting obsolete. Hidden: Recon units are not kicked out at War Declaration. Yeah this ability is too much.

I believe they just need all the units after the Scout stronger. I still think the Recon units should have to unlock the Camouflage promotion in order to turn invisible, but that Promotion shouldn't be unlock as the 4th one but earlier in the Promotion tree. The 1 PV withdrawal seems to be a little too much abusable, even if it seems very fun. I don't think doubling the reward from Tribal Village to Skirmishers is a good idea: they would be too few left. The only case is if they are an unexplored Barbarian continent somewhere and the civilization that would be there frist is going to gain too much from it. Maybe they need more plain bonuses. For example: Skirmishers, its replacement and its upgrades could have 3 Sight from the start in order to scout better the area; Ranger could inherit the Priority Target, Spec Ops could be unlocked later (Stealth?) so it could be a 75 RA / 70 MA units and be more relevant in the end game, while maybe add the Paratrooper (Radio?) to fill the gap.
For example:
Units_______Tech_______Production__Ranged Atk_Melee Atk__Range_MP_Sight
Scout_______None______40_(+10)___15 (new)____10________1_____3___2
Skirmisher___Machinery__160 (+10)___35 (+5)_____30 (+10)___1_____3___3
Ranger______Rifle______320 (-60)____55 (-5)_____50 (+5)____1_____3___3
Paratrooper__Radio______450_______65_________60________1_____3___3
Spec Ops____Stealth____640 (+120)__75 (+10)____70 (+10)___1_____4___3
Okihtcitaw____None_____40_________20 (new)___15 (-5)_____1_____3___2
Warak’aq____Machinery__160 (-5)____35 (-5)_____30 (+10)____1_____3___3
Highlander___Rifle_______320 (-60)___60 (-5)_____55 (+5)_____1____3___3

Slinger unit is removed. Archery’s Eureka now requires you to kill a unit with a Scout.
Okihtcitaw: stats with the Ranger promotion. Like Scout, it now has a Ranged Attack.
Warak’aq: can make 1 additional attack per turn if Movement allows. Like Skirmishers, it now has 3 Sight.
Highlander: has +5 CS in Hills and Woods. Like Ranger, it now has Priority Target.

Scouts have a Ranged Attack now.
Skirmishers, its replacement and its upgrades have now an increased sight of 3, for better exploration purposes.
Ranger, its replacement and its upgrades have now Priority Target ability, for better use against invasion. They are also cheaper to train.
Paratrooper and its upgrade have Paradrop ability. It is basically the current Spec Ops one era earlier and cheaper, but with 1 less range. It is to use them as an invading force earlier and more effectively.
Spec Ops have 1 additional Movement point, but doesn’t have 2 Range anymore. It is unlocked later so it scales better with the endgame.


Heck, they could also add new abilities to non-mounted land units to increase their Movement. It is one reason the Cavalry is way better. I would like to see a "Ride" and "Motorize" ability that increase Movement but consume Strategic Ressource. For example:
Once Horse Riding technology uncovered, gain the “Ride” ability: +1 Movement. Consume 1 Horse per turn if the unit attacks, get attacked or moved during the turn.
Once Combustion technology uncovered, gain the “Motorize” ability: +2 Movement. Consume 1 Oil per turn if the unit attacks, get attacked or moved during the turn.


Of course: if all of those ideas went into the game, the whole Recon lines would be too good to be true.

 

[KayAU]

I like how Vox Populi did recon units. They were focused on scouting and exploration, moving through rough terrain, and wilderness survival:

• They gain XP for uncovering tiles, as well as making discoveries and visiting tribal villages
• They have promotions to improve mobility, especially in rough terrain
• They have promotions to see further
• They have promotions to improve defence and healing outside of friendly territory

To me, scouting is a *lot* more fun in VP.

 

[Jkchart]

Lots of really neat ideas how to make Recon more useful in this thread. I particularly like scouts being able to give a "recon" bonus to nearby combats as well as the potential for them to be stealthy more easily.

I personally use Scouts plenty bc they are cheap, and I love SpecOps if I can get a couple upgraded and put them into armies. Skirmishers and Rangers are units I can use for a desperate defense, but I think they should be way cheaper...otherwise they aren't very useful sans promotions and promotions for Recon are just too hard to get reliably.

 

[Socrates99]

This might be a really small idea for buffing recon but why can't they scale cliffs? Heavy infantry can scale cliffs but light recon can't. Its weird.

 

[Pietato]

Barbs can just be given their own versions, like the early barb horsemen, to stop them from spawning any buffed scouts.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This might be a really small idea for buffing recon but why can't they scale cliffs? Heavy infantry can scale cliffs but light recon can't. Its weird.

Climbing should be something with cats enabled, since you can't pet them.