Different Unique Units for Different Ages?

Elras

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
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To throw up something new to discuss (or perhaps, go over old
ground that's been discussed to death before *shrug*)

What say you to the idea of each civilisation having different unique
units per age? Or perhaps 3 per civ if thats too many?

e.g.

English
Medievil Age: Longbowman
Gunpowder Age: Redcoat

French:
Muskeeteer
Foreign Legion

Hmmmm...that's a bit cr@p...I can only think of 2 per civ? :) Help?

The main gist of this suggestion is that it might even things
out for the Civs that get their UU very late (Germans & Americanos)
and also give the Civs whose UU comes early (but they didn't/couldn't
capitalise on it) another throw of the dice?

Obviously it might prove difficult to create UUs for Civs whose time
has passed but who knows it might liven things up a bit thought the
game.

Cheers
Elras
 
That's a bit problematic, because some nations lasted only short time in history. What would be aztec gunpowder-era unit? What would be americas medieval unit? I don't wanna see any made-up unique units. At least for me, one is enough.

But I think every leader should have their own UU. And perhaps UB too.
 
Well, I don't see a problem even if we give 20 special units to some nations.
Like in modern age Russia and the US had plenty of diffrent lets call them special units...And offcours the germans had some too....

In my opinion- well a lot of special units will harm the game balance, but- will make it more realistik. Why shouldn't the strong nations, I mean- countrues that ruled the world like GB, or France, Russia Rome and so on have an advantage other Koreans and Montezuma?
 
In my opinion- well a lot of special units will harm the game balance, but- will make it more realistik. Why shouldn't the strong nations, I mean- countrues that ruled the world like GB, or France, Russia Rome and so on have an advantage other Koreans and Montezuma?

That shouldn't be the case because the Civilization games are not completely historically representative. All the Civilization games do is take a certain leader from such and such time, take a military or domestic unit from the same civilization, and take a popular building from that same civilization, and combine that into one civilization with a name that we know, with starting technologies. What you then have is, basically, the first turn of the game is the most realistic that you'd going to get (even with America in the BCs), because the game goes absolutely any direction it wants to from there. Each civilization, therefore, should have a fair chance, because it's sort of like creating history for yourself. If you want a game where some nations have clear advantages compared to others, go play the Total War series or nearly any of the games made by Paradox.

Having several unique units would, for one, make things unfair, and second, not even be possible. As pointed out by Khamul, some civilizations are only in one time period of this game. There are civilizations, like England, that could have several different units... the English longbowman, the Redcoat, and maybe some planes from the British Royal Airforce (I don't know plane names, but I know that they had a good airforce), whereas other civilizations, like the Aztecs, could only be stuck with the Jaguar. To balance things out, Firaxis would have to make up a bunch of bull in order to make things fair, and as it is, people are complaining about every little historical tidbit that they can find... so imagine the chaos if the Incans had a unique modern armor tank.
 
Well, I don't see a problem even if we give 20 special units to some nations.
Like in modern age Russia and the US had plenty of diffrent lets call them special units...And offcours the germans had some too....

Well of course we could say that every nation have their unique swordmen, infantry, marines, artillery and so on. But I don't see any reason why we should...

In my opinion- well a lot of special units will harm the game balance, but- will make it more realistik. Why shouldn't the strong nations, I mean- countrues that ruled the world like GB, or France, Russia Rome and so on have an advantage other Koreans and Montezuma?

One reason why I like the game is the "what if" thing. I like to see that Zulus could take over England. I like to see that Monty beats spanish. CIV would be much less interesting if every time same nations were top of the chart.

And if we talk about history, there is several examples that "backward" nation crush more "advanced" nation. For example arab invasion, germans vs. Rome, mongols and so on.
 
I'l try to explain you why I'm so mad about the game balance.

The games current balance( and it allways was the same problem) leads to a situation that let's say after 200 turns( L map) everyone already have his borders, and countries don't expand.
The only way to expand is by war. Which doesn't oquire too often in the game.....And that leads to the biggest problem- as far as I'm capble of defeating one single enemy I'm autimatickly become the winner of the game...( Yes. I still have to take everyone out but it's only a matter of time).
But- if some countries would be much more dominant even after defeating two or three countries we wouldn't have these stupid situatuion.
I played my game till the end only a couple of times...And I play civ for a very long time...more then 10 years).
I finish the game once I'm the dominant force....It's just not intresting any longer....
 
Civ4 is a game about alternate histories, but this obviously doesn't show up with their UUs.

@Alsark: UU planes from the British Air Force? This was done in Rise of Nations, where the British had a Lancaster Bomber UU in the Modern Age.

Let me give some crazy UUs from Empire Earth II, a game in which each civ has 3 UUs; one per five epochs.

America
Frontiersmen
Minutemen
M18 Hellcats

Britain
Druids
Light Horses
M1-6 Agents

France
Mangoneau
Cuirassiers
Rafale D Stealth Fighters

Germany
Barbarians
Teutonic Knights
Jagdpanthers

Greece
Hoplites
Byzantine Lancers
Partisans

Rome
Legionnaires
Mercenaries
Arditis

Russia
Varagnian Warriors
Licorn Howitzers
Type 905 Gun Missile Tanks

More to Come...
 
@Alsark: UU planes from the British Air Force? This was done in Rise of Nations, where the British had a Lancaster Bomber UU in the Modern Age.

The British Air Unique Unit will always be the Spitfire for me.

So that's 1 Civ catered for :)

English
- Longbowmen
- Redcoats
- Spitfire

For a different UU for each Civ Leader (which is a damn fine idea, easier to
implement & an simple way to generate more variety in games)

English
Elizabeth - Man o War (enhanced Frigate)
Victoria - Redcoat
Churchill - Spitfire

French
Loius - Muskeeter
Napoleon - Imperial Guard
De Gaulle - French Foreign Legion?
Funny the French only seem to like their infantry? :)

Cheers
Elras
 
The games current balance( and it allways was the same problem) leads to a situation that let's say after 200 turns( L map) everyone already have his borders, and countries don't expand.
The only way to expand is by war. Which doesn't oquire too often in the game.....And that leads to the biggest problem- as far as I'm capble of defeating one single enemy I'm autimatickly become the winner of the game...( Yes. I still have to take everyone out but it's only a matter of time).
But- if some countries would be much more dominant even after defeating two or three countries we wouldn't have these stupid situatuion.
I played my game till the end only a couple of times...And I play civ for a very long time...more then 10 years).
I finish the game once I'm the dominant force....It's just not intresting any longer....
Well, ideally what would be happening is that when you make your move against, say the mongols, elsewhere in the world the french and the english will duke it out for their own reasons, with one of them gaining enough power to stay competitive with you, so that some nations may fall away, but the end result is not decided until after several wars.

What say you to the idea of each civilisation having different unique
units per age?
For civs that never made it to later ages, or were founded in later ages, you could take units from others in their cultural group. Maybe give aztecs a minuteman similar to the Americans, for instance.
 
A different unique unit for each leader would make the game even further imbalanced. The reason being here is because, if you're talking in addition to the three unique units from earlier, each civilization could have either four or six unique units, depending on their leader count. It certainly wouldn't be fair to give England six unique units and the Aztecs only four. If you meant without the additional two unique units, then it would still be unfair since it would be two unique units for some and four for others. Or maybe you meant drop all unique units entirely except for the leaderhead ones, in which case civilizations with more leaders would get much more play than others, to the point where everybody would always be England or some other three-leadered empire (since with more unique units, there comes a higher chance of one of them being very good). How you meant this statement was vague, so I addressed all of the possibilities. Furthermore, the leaders already have enough difference with traits - there's no need to make each leader even more unique, or else playing as Churchill and playing as Victoria would be like playing as two different civilizations entirely (aside from starting technologies and unique buildings - but if you're going to argue that each leader should have a unique unit, then you're probably not too far off-track of arguing that they should have different starting technologies and their own unique buildings, as well). Really, things are fine the way that they currently are. As the saying goes, "If it's not broken, don't fix it."
 
make flavor units. for example, wheni play as or against the germans rename or go into worldbuilder to rename their units.examples:
axeman--Germanic Tribesman
Knight--Teutonic Knights
Submarine--U-Boat.
Stats and abillities stay same but get different pic. much cooler
 
make flavor units. for example, wheni play as or against the germans rename or go into worldbuilder to rename their units.examples:
axeman--Germanic Tribesman
Knight--Teutonic Knights
Submarine--U-Boat.
Stats and abillities stay same but get different pic. much cooler

I actually think that that idea would be pretty cool. If each civilization had different unit animations with the same abilities, then everything would be kept balanced while still giving an overall sense of flavor. I imagine people would complain, however, that they don't like how Firaxis spent their time on units that don't have special abilities... but on the bright side, the added animations could be used in many modifications. Maybe the Aztecs could eventually use Mexican and Central American military units in modern times and the Incans use units from several different South American militaries. Americans wouldn't see flavor units until around 1700 AD, in which case they may see some militia unit skins. Overall, I think it would give each civilization a little bit of flavor and uniqueness while maintaining the game's current balance. I like the idea a lot.
 
i think that each civ should haqve three UUs one on land one flying and one ship

This wouldn't work, either. Civilizations like the Aztecs and Incans definitely didn't have any means of flight, so they wouldn't be able to have planes. You could use Mexican and South American planes for these civilizations, but I don't even think that Mexico or South America have very good planes today, either (I could be wrong). Furthermore, what of landlocked civilizations? Currently all of the civilizations in the game connect to the ocean at some point in their history, but if a future civilization is added that does not have such a connection (such as certain Native American tribes or some European countries), then it wouldn't make sense for them to have a unique naval unit.
 
Well, aren't you a Gloomy Gus, Alsark. :p

Alsark said:
A different unique unit for each leader would make the game even further imbalanced. The reason being here is because, if you're talking in addition to the three unique units from earlier, each civilization could have either four or six unique units, depending on their leader count. It certainly wouldn't be fair to give England six unique units and the Aztecs only four. If you meant without the additional two unique units, then it would still be unfair since it would be two unique units for some and four for others. Or maybe you meant drop all unique units entirely except for the leaderhead ones, in which case civilizations with more leaders would get much more play than others, to the point where everybody would always be England or some other three-leadered empire (since with more unique units, there comes a higher chance of one of them being very good).

The bolded part already is that way. Now, I am not big on the UU based on leader. But I don't see how this is "imbalanced". Currently 1 leader = 1 UU. Period. And this proposed idea of UU based off of leader choice does not change this. As to the part in parenthesis, if Firaxis made sure to balance the UUs then you wouldn't have that problem.

Additionally, your arguement has done a 180 antagonistically.
That shouldn't be the case because the Civilization games are not completely historically representative. All the Civilization games do is take a certain leader from such and such time, take a military or domestic unit from the same civilization, and take a popular building from that same civilization, and combine that into one civilization with a name that we know, with starting technologies. What you then have is, basically, the first turn of the game is the most realistic that you'd going to get (even with America in the BCs), because the game goes absolutely any direction it wants to from there.

I agree with that. I have no problem with units being made up or being brought in from similar cultures. Probably a mixture of both would be good. But anyways, then you turn around and say:

This wouldn't work, either. Civilizations like the Aztecs and Incans definitely didn't have any means of flight, so they wouldn't be able to have planes. You could use Mexican and South American planes for these civilizations, but I don't even think that Mexico or South America have very good planes today, either (I could be wrong). Furthermore, what of landlocked civilizations? Currently all of the civilizations in the game connect to the ocean at some point in their history, but if a future civilization is added that does not have such a connection (such as certain Native American tribes or some European countries), then it wouldn't make sense for them to have a unique naval unit.

Forgive me if I am not catching the point of your arguement but it seems unstable. The best line to try and defend with was:

"If it's not broken, don't fix it."
But the problem is, it is broken. Unless you can tell me exactly how situation dependant unique units such as the jaguar, panzer, or Navy Seal can be compared on equal ground to the very versatile and very game influencing units like the Praetorians or Redcoats that additionally have no counter.

I personally think that every Civilization should get 1 UU per every 2 eras. This gives them 3. Their first one will be in the Ancient-Classical Eras. Their second Medieval-Rennessaince. Their third Industrial-Modern.

We all know early warfare is crucial and early UUs benefit a civ greatly in game deciding ways. Granting each Civilization a UU for each era adds real balance to the system. Plus, they do need to tone down some of the UUs in the game already and beef up some others.
 
"The bolded part already is that way. Now, I am not big on the UU based on leader. But I don't see how this is "imbalanced". Currently 1 leader = 1 UU. Period. And this proposed idea of UU based off of leader choice does not change this. As to the part in parenthesis, if Firaxis made sure to balance the UUs then you wouldn't have that problem."

True, it is already made so that certain civilizations get more play than others, but if each leaderhead had a unique unit, the "a certain civilization getting more play" would basically narrow down to "a certain leader getting more play". As it stands now, some people might like Victoria and some people might like Elizabeth (I'm no fan of Churchill's traits, but some people might like to use him, as well), but if the Redcoat only belonged to one of them, then the unique unit of the other two might just not be very good. So you'd go from having different popularity amongst the English leaderheads to everybody always playing just one - the one with the stronger unique unit. The same would hold true for Rome. Some people might like Augustus, and some might like Julius, but when only one gets the praetorian, the other one is going to suddenly be no fun to play as (unless his unique unit is just as good, but it really can't be since the praetorian is already probably the best unique unit in the game). It would basically come down to that if a new expansion were to come out with additional leaderheads, nobody would really care or be excited because people will stick with their leaderhead with the best unique unit of that particular civilization.

"Additionally, your arguement has done a 180 antagonistically."

I'm not really seeing the turnaround there, so you'll have to explain that one to me. What I was saying by that the game isn't historically representative is that you control a particular nation and do whatever you want. So England won't be a country on an island, for example, and Zululand might end up being a huge democratic nation. My second paragraph doesn't really relate to the first paragraph that you quoted for this cause, because my second paragraph was pointing out that they only take historic unique buildings and historic unique units. I did say as much in the first paragraph that you quoted when I said I did the flip. So... sorry, but you'll have to explain that one to me.



"But the problem is, it is broken. Unless you can tell me exactly how situation dependant unique units such as the jaguar, panzer, or Navy Seal can be compared on equal ground to the very versatile and very game influencing units like the Praetorians or Redcoats that additionally have no counter."

I certainly cannot argue with you there. A good three-fourths of the unique units are absolutely useless, in my opinion. Certain unique units are just in every way overpowered, like the praetorians, and I do think that these units need to be toned down all the while beefing up some other unique units. Balance is maintained somewhat, however, in the addition of unique buildings. I do not particularly find the forum building to be that good, because it only speeds up population growth, and thus, unhealthiness and unhappiness (which isn't bad, I suppose, if you're going to just whip them anyway), though others may like it. I also don't find the Stock Exchange building to be that great, because the additional +15% wealth probably doesn't mean a lot in comparison to the normal bank. Sometimes you might want to pick a civilization just for a unique building, rather than the unique unit. My brother, for example, loves to pick Montezuma due to his sacrificial altar (he's a big fan of whipping people), despite the fact that his unique unit sucks. In this case, balance is maintained. I have to agree, however, that some civilizations get two slaps in the face, such as America with their Navy Seal and their mall, both of which come far too late to be any good (and aren't good once when you get them).

"I personally think that every Civilization should get 1 UU per every 2 eras. This gives them 3. Their first one will be in the Ancient-Classical Eras. Their second Medieval-Rennessaince. Their third Industrial-Modern."

Again, though, this goes back to... what unique unit could the Aztecs possibly have beyond the classical era? Even if you look into Mexican culture, I don't think you'd find a very good industrial or modern era unique unit for the Aztecs. I guess the only thing that comes to mind would be some sort of Alamo gunslinger - I'm not sure if those soldiers had a specific name, though.

"We all know early warfare is crucial and early UUs benefit a civ greatly in game deciding ways. Granting each Civilization a UU for each era adds real balance to the system. Plus, they do need to tone down some of the UUs in the game already and beef up some others."

I can agree with you on the balance so long as one civilization doesn't get stuck with a bunch of bad units, similar to the America situation with the mall and the Navy Seal. The only problem is finding late unique units for civilizations that no longer exist (not on a map, at least) and for finding early unique units for civilizations that are relatively new. America, for example, couldn't begin having unique units until you research gunpowder (I suppose America might have been using musketmen compared to England's riflemen at the time). I mean, if their unique unit was something like, "American Caveman," as a unique warrior, then that would just be uh... I'll go with the word "humorous"...


Haha, sorry if I seem "gloomy", I'm just saying that such an update is never going to happen. I can see that it is nice to always dream, but an update like this wouldn't make a ton of sense, and even if we did all think of a brilliant and perfect way to work it out, it wouldn't happen... I realize we don't expect it to happen (or most of us probably realize that), but you always need a "grouch" like me in an argument to defend the side with less popularity, heh.
 
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