Difficulties to enter a war

[Ostelen56]

Hello,

I play civ 6. I am starting to understand the mecanics so I can play at the King level. But there is something that I don't understand it is how to enter a war without having all the negatives aspects that are : no diplomacy points because I occupy a city (so i can not vote anymore to the the world congress), difficulty to keep a city if I do not have big cities next to it because of the loyalty system, and how to avoid the griefs if I raze a city and so on. Finally when I play I just avoid war and develop until the scientific or the religious victory. I would enjoy more the game if there was a little bit more war. Should I go to war only against my neighbors (so I should avoid to make them my ally at the beginning of the game) ? But still I will have the penalty for occupying a city. If I raze them to colonize after i will have the griefs of all other civs so it does not work either.
Do you see guys what I am talking about ?

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I'm not 100% sure if I understand, but using a Casus Belli is good if you ever plan to conquer and/or raze cities.
If you surprise war outside of the ancient era, you will just rack up so many grievances that everyone will hate you after a while.
So make sure you denounce your target at least (to get the Casus Belli for a Formal War).

As for Loyalty, you have to be careful.
Try to only conquer cities that are close to you (if you plan on keeping them), and if that's not available, try to conquer a lot of cities at the same time (near each other, since they will mutually strengthen each other with loyalty).
Also, always put a governor in an occupied city, that's extra 8 loyalty for you right there.
Also consider slotting in cards like Limitanei if you need to (+2 loyalty for a garrison) and repair the Monument immediately (+1 loyalty).
That will usually buy you enough time to conquer nearby cities before the first city rebels, but you do have to be quick about it.
Once you conquer a cluster of 3-4 cities they tend to stabilize on their own.
Also try to take out the high population cities fast.
If you conquer a 2 pop city and a 10 pop city enemy city is near, you will struggle to hold onto that city.
While if you take the 10 pop city first, it will be much easier to hold onto.

 

[RealHuhn]

There are two casus belli which heavily decrease the penalties for razing cities (afaik 50% less than formal war): Holy War and War of Territorial Expansion. If you can, use those. Never declare surprise wars.

If you have trouble with Loyalty, just move Magnus to the city, buy a builder and harvest food resources to increase population. That's usually the fastest method.
Other things which increase loyalty quickly:
- Get more amenities via trading luxuries.
- Convert the city to your religion if you have one.
- A few policy cards but I usually don't need them.
- Promote Victor and establish him in a city nearby.

You cannot do anything about the diplo points penalty but there are tons of other sources to counter this:
- Become the suzerain of more city states.
- Build the diplo quarter and establish embassies etc.
- Don't build as many power plants.
- Get the Pagoda belief.
-etc.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Diplo favour works very strange when you do domination based games though.
You will usually just have to accept getting lots of negative diplo favours as a penalty for taking capitals, but on the other hand you will occasionally rake in a lot of diplo favour by the various emergencies that are declared against you (200 favour won if you keep a city that was targeted by an emergency).

The best course of action is usually just either holding onto it (if you know a WC vote will come up soon), or just sell it outright to the highest bidder for a lot of gold/great works etc.

 

[Aurelesk]

Diplomatic Favor penalties: for each Capitals you have, you are losing 5 Diplomatic Favors per turn. This is unavoidable... Except if you do not conquer any Capital. This penalty was enforced to prevent to win the Diplomatic Victory by destroying all the other civilizations.

Loyalty issue: there is a few way to fix it

• Occupied cities have -5 Loyalty
  • Garrison give +8 Loyalty
    • Sloting the Limitanei policy card give +2 Loyalty
• If you have a Religion:
  • If the city have an other religion: -3 Loyalty
  • If the city have your religion: +3 Loyalty
• Starving cities have -4 Loyalty
  • Repair the Farms tiles or put an Internal Trade Route
• Monument: +1 Loyalty
• Look for the Amenity
  • -6 Loyalty if -3 or less Amenities
  • -3 Loyalty -1 or -2 Amenities
  • +0 Loyalty if 0 Amenities
  • +3 Loyalty if +1 or +2 Amenities
  • +6 Loyalty if +3 or more Amenities
• Put a Governor for +8 Loyalty
  • Slotting the Praetorium policy card give +2 Loyalty.
  • Having Victor with Garrison Commander nearby gives +4 Loyalty
• If the city isn't on your continent: +3 Loyalty from the Colonial Offices policy cards.
• Some Great Generals and Great Admirals have +Loyalty as retirement abilities
• Conquer the nearby cities to reduce the Loyalty Pressure
• Do an Cultural Alliance if a nearby civilization you are not at war put Loyalty Pressure on you
• Run the Bread and Circus project if you have in the city or nearby cities the Entertainement Complex or Water Park.
• The Government Plaza gives +8 Loyalty
• Try to be on a Golden Age to suffer less from Loyalty issue

Grievance system: Each time you conqueer a city, you get X Grievances. The amount depends how wide the target civilization is, and how populous the city is. A populous city in a civilization that have very few cities is going to yield a lot of Grievance. If razed, that penalty is triple. To get ride of the Grievance penalty, you can trade back the city at peace deal. If you keep it, the Grievance for each city is doubled.
Be the target of a War allow to have a some sort of Grievance cushion, so you maybe take a few more cities. Basicly, you can annex 2 to 3 cities per war without having too much Grievances. There is also some Casus Belli that allow to reduce the amount of Grievance you start with, and when conquering some specific cities.

Basicly, you can enjoy some War and save diplomatic ties with everyone. You just need to not be too greedy.

 

[MrRadar]

The best answer to loyalty problems while conquering, is doing it faster and with more troops. As soon as the capital falls, loyalty problems usually end. So build yourself an army capable of overwhelming at least two targets at once. Use respective policy cards, chopping, Magnus' Black Marketeer promotion. Build troops in all cities. For an early war, three cities can produce you an army to take over half the world on Deity, so on King even more so. Best war is one done quickly, so it can be ended earlier, and earlier wars are sooner forgotten, with all the grievances they caused.

And, of course, going to war with one or two neighbours does not necessarily mean that you have to become a pariah state in the world. Do your diplomatic homework before you start the fight. Try to befriend those civs that you have no intention to fight. As soon as you sign a Declaration of Friendship with them, they will not join Military Emergencies against you, you'll have with whom to trade for luxuries and strategic resources and Diplomatic Favour, and such. And they will not give a toss if you take out a civ or two. As long as you extend that DoF on the turn it expires. Because they will accumulate all those grievances and negative diplo modifiers anyway, however, while a DoF is active, all that negativity does not do anything, they will only sour up if you let Friendships expire without extending them.

If you fight a later war and only plan to take a city or two, but not to eliminate a civ, take three cities instead and give one back in a peace deal, that way you will avoid that negative modifier "you hold one of our cities". Then you may even end up being friends with that civ later on

 

[Victoria]

Get civs to declare war on you, take a few cities but leave their capital like @MrRadar says including giving one back which is V important.
You can also see when a civ starts attacking a CS, then Casus them.

a general tip is to befriend the civs that also border on the civs next to you. It just generally helps keep grievances and dip damage down. Joint wars are great also for this.

generally repeating the above post for emphasis and a little embellishment

 

[Ostelen56]

I finally entered a war against China. I conquered a city and I was expecting a lot of disloyalty regarding the number of enemy cities around it. But surprisingly there was not the fist symbol when I entered it and I do not understand why. I can not figure out how the loyalty system works (I would like to be able to predict if I need to conquer two cities in a row as you advised or if only one is needed). Is it maybe because I have a good amenities level in my civilization ? Moreover, it seems the bonus of the governor already works despite I just sent him in this turn. I do not see the negative points for all the pressure I get from the China's towns nearby.

 

[MrRadar]

I finally entered a war against China. I conquered a city and I was expecting a lot of disloyalty regarding the number of enemy cities around it. But surprisingly there was not the fist symbol when I entered it and I do not understand why. I can not figure out how the loyalty system works (I would like to be able to predict if I need to conquer two cities in a row as you advised or if only one is needed). Is it maybe because I have a good amenities level in my civilization ? Moreover, it seems the bonus of the governor already works despite I just sent him in this turn. I do not see the negative points for all the pressure I get from the China's towns nearby.

What's the era situation? If you're in a Golden/Heroic Age and China in a Dark one, then it is no wonder. Loyalty pressure from population is increased if a civ is in Golden Age and decreacesed while it is in Dark. So it is much easier to deal with loyalty if you do war while in a Golden Age and your opponent being in Normal/Dark.

And yes, the loyalty bonus from governors is applied immediately, without the need for them to be established.

 

[japanesesamurai]

The best answer to loyalty problems while conquering, is doing it faster and with more troops. As soon as the capital falls, loyalty problems usually end. So build yourself an army capable of overwhelming at least two targets at once. Use respective policy cards, chopping, Magnus' Black Marketeer promotion. Build troops in all cities. For an early war, three cities can produce you an army to take over half the world on Deity, so on King even more so. Best war is one done quickly, so it can be ended earlier, and earlier wars are sooner forgotten, with all the grievances they caused.

And, of course, going to war with one or two neighbours does not necessarily mean that you have to become a pariah state in the world. Do your diplomatic homework before you start the fight. Try to befriend those civs that you have no intention to fight. As soon as you sign a Declaration of Friendship with them, they will not join Military Emergencies against you, you'll have with whom to trade for luxuries and strategic resources and Diplomatic Favour, and such. And they will not give a toss if you take out a civ or two. As long as you extend that DoF on the turn it expires. Because they will accumulate all those grievances and negative diplo modifiers anyway, however, while a DoF is active, all that negativity does not do anything, they will only sour up if you let Friendships expire without extending them.

If you fight a later war and only plan to take a city or two, but not to eliminate a civ, take three cities instead and give one back in a peace deal, that way you will avoid that negative modifier "you hold one of our cities". Then you may even end up being friends with that civ later on

This is not entirely true. A betrayal emergency over rules an alliance. Which means an ally can brake the alliance if it choses to participate in the emergency against you

 

[MrRadar]

This is not entirely true. A betrayal emergency over rules an alliance. Which means an ally can brake the alliance if it choses to participate in the emergency against you

Ah, can be. Never got targeted by one of those, so far

 

[Arithmion]

Ah, can be. Never got targeted by one of those, so far

From my experience, the AI absolutely loves to take part in betrayal emergencies. It's a tradition of mine to betray a former ally when I launch the spaceship (but never Poundmaker). It spices up the endgame when all of my production is devoted to laser stations, and I have to fend off 7 civs at once because they all joined. It's not terribly difficult, because cities are basically indestructible after building a fully upgraded GDR, but it's more fun than hitting shift+enter 50 times.

 

[japanesesamurai]

From my experience, the AI absolutely loves to take part in betrayal emergencies. It's a tradition of mine to betray a former ally when I launch the spaceship (but never Poundmaker). It spices up the endgame when all of my production is devoted to laser stations, and I have to fend off 7 civs at once because they all joined. It's not terribly difficult, because cities are basically indestructible after building a fully upgraded GDR, but it's more fun than hitting shift+enter 50 times.

This is why I think a very late game threat should be reimplemented. Somewhere around gathering storm, FXS removed this feature in which the AI would get together to war against a potential winner (you). I’ve seen Gandhi + friends nuke me because I was getting close to victory in R&F. This was a very nice feature and for some lame reason FXS patched it out.
Hitting shift enter and shuffling around builders for 25 turns is extremely tiresome