Diplomacy basics, please

Nilzor

Chieftain
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Sep 27, 2010
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Hi. I'm a long time civ fan - most hours put into Civ3. I got to admit I've never relly gotten the grasp on diplomacy. I'm now in the medieval ages of my first game in Civ 5 as Romans and I've got to admit the same feeling applies here. The Russians are getting hostile on me, and I don't understand why.

Can someone please explain the basics to me - how do I make the Russians more friendly? Is it as simple as giving away gold? TBH, I couldn't actually figure out how to give gifts in the diplomacy interface now. Anyway, our borders are not in contact and I have not done anything to upset them (I've only battled barbarians). On the contrary, I once freed a captured settler for them - that made them polite for about five turns before once again turning hostile.

In addition to the Russians, the Germans are on our islands. I am the largest nation in terms of city count and the Russians come second. The Germans are friendly towards me. I'm playing on the second to easiest difficult level (don't remember the name).

What about regular trading (luxuries, technology..) - does that have any effect on the relations? If yes, what if we don't have anything to trade, how can I improve the relationship?

Any hints appreciated.

Nilzor.
 
I'm tired of answering this question but here it comes again.

There is no diplomacy gameplay in civ5. You can trade with other civs, but that's about it. They will attack/not attack regardless of how you treat them
 
I find this lack of info disturbing. Civ4 had exact points, even if it's interface was lying here and there, you still had a pretty good idea how to make them happier and whatnot. Civ5 diplomacy is still a black box for me.

Edit:
There is no diplomacy gameplay in civ5. You can trade with other civs, but that's about it. They will attack/not attack regardless of how you treat them
Do you know it for sure? Or is it just based on your personal observations so far... if this, it may or may not be correct. Maybe there's a system behind AIs madness.
 
Do you know it for sure? Or is it just based on your personal observations so far... if this, it may or may not be correct. Maybe there's a system behind AIs madness.

You are right, I haven't digged into the code. But I love diplomacy in civ games, so I have tried hard. And in all my games, with many different leader oponents, it doesn't matter whatever you do. The attacks are random, at any time and regardless of anything you have done. Not even the excuse for "they just play for winning" counts, since they do random things that clearly harm them too.

All I can say is, dice rolls on AI diplomatic decisions. Or in other words, no diplomacy gameplay. Which is a shame for the civ series. (this doesn't mean Im not loving everything else about the game)
 
As for diplomacy, I love this aspect of gameplay. It's not like in Civ IV, where giving in to demands and having the same religion as your neighbours would guarantee an eternal friendship (until you yourself decided to attack oyur "friend").

From my experience, I usually find out who I'm going to be friends with and who I'll keep at a distance rather early, and thus get cozy with the ones I want to (open border, luxury trades, pact of secrecy/cooperation, research agreements), while not bathering about the rest. At the same time, I don't leave my border cities unguarded, or let my military make me an easy target, as the AI behaves more or like as I would myself; "sure we've been "friends" for a long while now, but he's got no soldiers, alot of Wonders, and nice resources...."

Sometimes I misjugde the AI (the Romans have backstabbed me more than once), and sometimes they misjudge me (like the Americans taking peace-pledge for granted, while massing a huge armada outside of his continent):)
 
I usually find out who I'm going to be friends with and who I'll keep at a distance rather early, and thus get cozy with the ones I want to (open border, luxury trades, pact of secrecy/cooperation, research agreements), while not bathering about the rest.

The problem is that has no effect.

You may like that they removed the diplomacy aspect. It favours warmongering indeed. But I liked having a diplomacy gameplay, and I think it's a part of what civilization is.
 
I'm tired of answering this question but here it comes again.

There is no diplomacy gameplay in civ5. You can trade with other civs, but that's about it. They will attack/not attack regardless of how you treat them

I understand the diplomacy is kindof broken / random in Civ5. My intended question is more like "how it is SUPPOSED to work", or how did it work in Civ4 / Civ3? I do understand if this is impossible to answer due to lack of documentation and the aforementioned brokedness :)
 
It is not broken. It is intended to not have any diplomacy. So we can't explain you how it should work, it is working as intended.

Just trade with them and forget about if they like you or not.
 
Kaltorak is right. There seems to be no logic behind de diplomacy. At first i was friends with Japan en together we crushed England. A few turns later Japan attacked me out of the blue.
 
I don't think for a second that Firaxis INTENDED to "not have diplomacy". If they would, why would even have the concept there. I will still take your advice though :)
 
Kaltorak is right. There seems to be no logic behind de diplomacy. At first i was friends with Japan en together we crushed England. A few turns later Japan attacked me out of the blue.
Maybe it's a bug. I have been friends with England for a long time even that I'm very very close to them.

They attacked a city-state, some other city-states declared war on england including an Ally of mine, and England came to apologize.
 
I don't think for a second that Firaxis INTENDED to "not have diplomacy".

Well they did and didn't. Personally, I think Kaltorak is being extreme in the assessmant, as I have had favorable "luck" with my A.I. interactions, especially as you play the game a couple of times because you get a grasp for understanding who behaves in what ways. Like knowing that Montezuma in civ4 will probably attack you at any point for no reason. In civ5, however, they all have that potential logic, except I wouldn't call it entirely random dice rolls.

We've been told various snippets as the game was talked about that suggests why decisions will be made at seemingly random points. For example, it was said that every turn our A.I. neighbors make an assessment of us, and of us in relation to their game win. Likely, this assessment also takes into account what turn it is. So while you and a "friend" may have had a fantastic relationship for 100 turns, it's highly possible that at 120 turns, their assessment of you begins to suggest that you're no longer important, or they're reached a point where they don't need to work with you. This is where we start seeing demands come into play, or declarations of war.

It is like playing a human player in the sense that ultimately, human "relations modifiers" in a multiplayer game are meaningless unless the teams are already picked. Any time there is some agreement of any form, it'll usually result in inevitable backstab somewhere. So in this sense it's like playing a game of FFA civ.

Again, whether people want to buy into this logic or not is their decision. I think it makes sense and falls into what I've observed. Others may not have had the same "luck". However, to suggest that it doesn't attempt to work this way because the A.I. is makes bad decisions is a little odd because A.) Humans make poor decisions too, and B.) If computers never made bad decisions, Chess wouldn't come standard in almost all PCs, since it'd be impossible to beat.


So, you wanted tips, here come my tips;

Habit - Learn what A.I. are more aggressive (Wu Zeitan) and more peaceful (Ghandi). It isn't to the point where Ghandi will sit by and be your friend all game. He'll probably come in to conflict with you at some point.

Pacts -Anytime anyone asks for pact of cooperation, if you have no desire for conflict with them, accept it. I've yet to discover for sure if there is some kind of "you're working with our enemy" penalty, but I don't think there is. Now, this pact is not a ward against conflict, it's to act as an alarm. I've observed one thing from civ's ~ usually, they tell you what they're doing if you join them in playing their little system. I don't think I've ever seen an A.I. declare war without first telling you that their done with a Pact. So, naturally, keep pacts with civs to serve as a warning that you're headed into eventual conflict with someone that ends it.

Don't Lie - This may sound silly, but I feel that you have a world reputation here. Just like if you're a bastard in an MP game... people will probably gang up on you. Admit to war if you're called out on it. If you're at someone's border with an army and they say "you're attacking me aren't you" - admit to it. The diplomatic ramifications of this are widespread.

Misc] - just like in past games, gifts help. As do trades, and research pacts. Interacting with the A.I. still causes them to "like" you. You just have to understand that ultimately they are your competition and they are no longer bound ball and chain to some code that prevents them from ever turning against you. So be sparing with your gifts, and just don't get caught off guard. As in past games, having a big military will help in the A.I.'s assessment of you. I've still been attacked but I've had the A.I. actually say to me (paraphrasing) - "We probably can't beat you... but we've got to try", and this was at a point where the other civ's were ganging up on me due to my city-state aggression, which they asked me to prevent, and I said "mind your own business".

All in all, I feel the "diplomacy" is pretty intuitive if you get off the notion that there's some way to truly manipulate A.I. behavior, and rather you can only influence it. So many people say, "I was friends with X civ, and they attacked me!" and lament about the system... Except, for myself, I've had the opposite happen. I've actually made friends with life-long, mortal enemies. I had one game where I was enemies and at war with Persia for half the game, and the relationship turned around and we were trading and sharing research pacts together.
 

I learnt their habits like you say. I know who is going to get angry more easily or who is going to act nicely. The problem si that that has no effect. He can come swearing or he can come making compliments, and that indeed depends on the leader and on how you treat them. But when you hit next turn both have the same chance of declaring war. You can say: "its because they can betray you". I think it's just the same as not having diplomacy.
Pacts seem to work for making trades better, although they seem to do very little. But anyway I'm not talking about trades but about diplomatic relations.
Don't Lie
I found this a nice aspect. They detect when you lie. For example if they say: "you are amassing troops near my country, are you going to declare war?"
If you answer yes, and declare, you lose the first attack, but at least they say taht you are honest. If you say, "my troops are only on his way", and then declare soon, the leaders will know you are a lier for future things you say.

This would be nice, if their reactions would mean anything. They know you are a lier, but since they would declare war anyway no matter what they think of you, this aspect which could be cool added to a relation system, is also nonesense.
 
I believe there is a SMALL amount of logic in Diplomacy.

I told Elizabeth to "get over it" once in a dispute over the favor of a city-state, and she hated me the rest of the game. I've chosen the more polite responses to other civs for the same issue and was able to still trade peacefully with them.

Apparently choosing the rude response really makes them hate you.

Of course, beyond that, I don't even know what these pacts do so I tend to just accept every single one that's offered.
 
so far some things I've noticed. Pretty much no matter what if you share a border with an AI, they will not like you, probably even try to coordinate a war against you with other AI's. Also the AI's only respect military prowess. No matter how nice you are to them, they will eventually declare war on you if you are weak. If you are all powerful, they will cower in the corner and really never mess with you.
 
The problem is that has no effect.

You may like that they removed the diplomacy aspect. It favours warmongering indeed. But I liked having a diplomacy gameplay, and I think it's a part of what civilization is.

Based on the games I've had, I don't think they removed diplomacy. Yes, i find it a bit harder to get along, but that's what I like - it's a real challenge, it's not sufficient to "adopt Buddhism". As in real-life (and as in multiplayer), things are not set in stone, and your best friend may turn on you, and your worst enemy may turn out to be your best friend. That just adds to the flavor, in my opinion.

Maybe you've been unlucky in your games....?
 
I like this AI Diplomacy because it is unpredictable to a certain extent - a lot more "human" than Civ IV.

Civ IV AI: "If I push this button, and turn this lever while spinning to the left then it's gauranteed that you won't attack me 'cause I can manipulate your code"

Civ V AI: "We're friends are we? Uh huh, sure - if you say so. I guess your promise of undying friendship has a little bit of worth so I can focus most of my resources on attacking Ghandi, but I'm going to keep 3 knights at my back door just in-case you can't totally be trusted. Are we clear?"
 
Unlucky in what sense? I don't say everybody declares war on me. I say that no matter how I treat them, they can declare war or not. It works also in the other direction. If there are 2 leaders and I made one like me and I treated the other bad, I know both have the same chance to attack me.

That's why you can't call it a diplomacy system, I'm not just saying that everyone declares. It's just that everyone randomly decides to attack or not to. Maybe not random in the sense of a dice roll, but you don't have any diplomacy gameplay to influence it, so it's as it were random to us
 
I like this AI Diplomacy because it is unpredictable to a certain extent - a lot more "human" than Civ IV.

Civ IV AI: "If I push this button, and turn this lever while spinning to the left then it's gauranteed that you won't attack me 'cause I can manipulate your code"

Civ V AI: "We're friends are we? Uh huh, sure - if you say so. I guess your promise of undying friendship has a little bit of worth so I can focus most of my resources on attacking Ghandi, but I'm going to keep 3 knights at my back door just in-case you can't totally be trusted. Are we clear?"

So I wont "push this button, and turn this leveler while spinning to the left", since it doesn't have any effect at all.
Or in other words, no diplomacy gameplay. Just prepared for war with anybody, like you say. Yes, more warmongering, but civilization should have a diplomacy gameplay in my opinion. It's not panzer general.
Imo you proved my point, even if you of course can like it more without diplomacy.
 
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